And so the dagger hath been sheathed.......
And so the dagger hath been sheathed.......
Thanks NepenthesGracilis, your comments just got me about 10 more PMs and e-mails that I won't be responding to. Life isnít exactly a bowl of cherries just yet and people are out there upset about the auctions and feel the people in control now won't go after Casper and will use the money inconsistently with why it was raised. Not much I can or am willing to do about that any longer and people need to speak for themselves and express their concerns. *
Bugs, patience is not one of my virtues. Never has been and never will be and definitely isn't when I see a freight train coming straight at me. Sorry Bugweed but I will not expose myself to liability as a result of the inability or unwillingness of others to act professionally, responsibly, and in accordance with the few established rules that existed. I wanted it to be perfectly clear where I stood through out this three ring circus just in case anyone points a finger at me and says Laura shouldacoulda. Really sorry Bugs, I've lost the faith. My prior experiences with Boards have all been extremely positive. The NASC was the exception. I've never seen so many people going in so many different directions in my entire life. So now, I think I will follow your lead and work by myself. I'll just grow (and kill) by my lonely with my 4 CP buddies and continue to pass extras on to newcomers and schools.
0zzy, I feel real bad about what I'm going to type but I don't think you wanted to get the money back if it meant that your friend Casper might get arrested or else you would have piped up at one of those Board meetings and stated you were interested in my offer to fund a skip search as well as accepting my money to consult with an attorney in Nebraska which is where the NASC was going to be incorporated. I can appreciate that. I have friends who I wouldn't want to see under a microscope.
Unlike 0zzy who faithfully attended meetings, Bugweed couldn't show to any for personal reasons BUT he was up front about why he couldnít show. PAK showed up for a portion of maybe two Board meetings and even then she wasn't on time or left early. Although she wasn't present either time I offered to shell out my own money to help the NASC move forward by putting this behind them, she sure did make it well known that Casper was her friend when any opportunity presented itself and she is a moderator so people backed off. *I canít count how many times people commented that they felt intimidated by her.
I have difficulty believing Bugweed is currently involved in much of anything other than growing his plants and plugging along like he always did. If voicing his opinion that Casper should be pursued and turning over his presidency to 0zzy is considered being active, well then I guess my definition of active differs from that of 0zzyís. Speaking of which, 0zzy should have been officially nominated and the Board should have been called to meet so they could have officially voted him into office, That would have been the proper way to handle this. Everyone likes 0zzy and he would have been a shoe in.
[QUOTE]ME, Bugweed and PAK are all that is really involved right now.[/QUOTE} *FACT-That is by choice. Last I read, Noah was asking why nobody showed up at the Board meeting in July that had been scheduled. Before that you and I showed up at quite a few and hung out for quite a while waiting and everyone else was a no show other than Noah. It looks to me as if you and PAK went off on your own. That's perfectly fine too but please don't try to call what ever is going on now a sanctioned NASC activity. *None of the other Board members had any idea you two were meeting and they certainly were not called upon to join you or your assistant. It was crystal clear there was a Board that elected Executive Board members and we know who they are. The instant PAK resigned, the Board should have been called to meet to select a new Secretary. The instant Bugweed resigned, the Board should have been called to meet to elect a new President. The moment you all realized that Copper was gone, the Board should have been called to meet to select a new Vice President. Once those positions were filled, then and only then, should the Executive Board have been meeting and minutes needed to be recorded and shared with the regular Board and then posted in open forum. You two want to go it on your own then please do so but please don't pretend to want to be a not for profit if new rules are being created as you so desire by excluding the handful of people who were interested in contributing. Right now all it looks like is that a handful of people want to have auctions so that they can do their thing and save plants. It doesn't work that way. Read what Rose wrote. Read what Tamlin wrote. Read what Hortman wrote. Read what April wrote. How many people have repeatedly tried to tell everyone to function as a unit and to fully disclose. People all but banged their heads into walls to get you people to work as a team. You can't go out doing your own thing expecting people to fund your dreams. If it is down to you and PAK by choice because you two don't want to include anyone else in any decision making process, this is perfectly fine but let's call a spade a spade, eh?
There are two choices as I see it. Report Casper to the proper authorities. *Close out this yearís auction by listing every person who didnít pay or send plants. Let go of the money and move forward at a casual club level (find a new name for your club) as suggested by Capslock. This is actually what has been happening anyway and Iíd be in favor of this action.
Report Casper to the proper authorities. Close out this yearís auction by listing every person who didnít pay or send plants. Hire an attorney and incorporate out the gate right now, schedule regular Board meetings followed by an Executive Session (expect people to attend), and buy insurance. Let it be known that nothing happens unless it is approved by the Board. Volunteers, regardless of their capacity, should not be allowed to go off into little groups making decisions that affect others or they should be shown the door. It has to be a team. *If slots for Executive positions canít be filled, close up shop with dignity and revert to a casual club with a different name.
I still have no desire to be an Executive Board member. I personally have no desire to be anything with the NASC any longer. The NASC doesn't really exist and I am numb. I have never seen so many people thrown in front of a bus before and all the lies and secrets have given me a headache. So many lies and so many secrets. *It isnít wholesome and I donít feel good about being associated with the NASC any longer. I, like others, need to feel a team is cohesive and assembled ďfor a greater goodĒ or there is no point to the exercise.
For me, I will be around. *I still do my thing with kids and I still do my thing with native flora and native fauna and I will continue to volunteer my time with professional organizations. CPs are my pleasure, my escape. *I'll still share my location plants with not for profit organizations that will use them for education or reintroduce them to the wild. Other than that, I'll stick to the 4 CP buddies I have while continuing to buy my plants and I will share any extras with newcomers or schools. It's really more "me" to stick to education anyway as that's where my interests lie. Mind you, education is not my expertise but I do get a kick out of creating programming for kids and working with them.
If there are any more auctions, perhaps people who donate plants could be provided a choice of where they wish the proceeds from their high bidder to go. That will solve a lot of problems as people will have only themselves to blame if the organization they choose has issues.
And I do think the proceeds from this yearís auction need to go to TNC and/or Botanique. This has gone on long enough to be an embarrassment. If I don't hear anything by the end of the month, I'll just total up what the plants I donated sold for and ask Terra to cut checks less the fees for any people who remitted payment via PayPal and ask them to send half to TNC and half to Botanique. I certainly never wanted my money funding a casual club and I certainly never wanted my money funding whatever you want to call the NASC now. It certainly isn't a viable entity in my opinion and hasnít been for a while and never will be.
Take Care all
Now that's how we want our President? to act. Once you realikze that you CAN'T save every plant you'll rest much easier. Besides...conducting a resuce involves more than just showing up at every construction site with shovel in hand telling the bulldozer operator to "get the AHYUK out of the way. These plants need to be saved"! No they don't. They don't ALL need to be saved.Originally Posted by [b
Laura: I'm with you on this one. I, as well, feel we should pool our resources/donations towards The Nature Conservancy/Botanique from here on out. The NC has the know how to handle these conservation efforts and Botanique ALREADY has something of a national collection. How many national collections do we need? Are we p'd off because the UK did it publicly before WE did? I'm not. Bully for them.
I spoke with my attorney and did find out some very interesting facts. I won't mention anything public here except that Laura is on the right track. She is a bit more...nay a LOT more educated in this area than anyone else I have heard anything from. You guys should listen to her, or shall we say...should have listened to her.
Well after reading this and thinking it over I really donít know what to say. We need an emergence meeting ASAP.
Here is the list I had of the ďBoard MembersĒ who out of this is list no longer involved? Do we really need a president at this time?
Jim Scott Straus
The last meeting was 5/20/2005 right?
I really think relining so heavily I just one or two people is a major mistake unless that person has loads of free time and expertise.
It seems to me we have plenty of people who wanted to help but few to lead.
I think we were on the right track but we did not realize how much Rose was doing for us.
I for one would hate to see the NASC go under after all the work some people have put into it. Iím busy with the CCPS, school, work and various other endeavors but I will do what I can.
So who is still willing to go on with the NASC?
First I want to apologize for the way I worded to post I made last night. I'm not sorry for what I said because I meant every word and it's how I feel. I will apologized for the way I said it though.
Capslock, nothing in my post was directed at you. I have no problem answering questions. The problem I have is the same people keep asking the same question, and to me it seems like the only purpose is to start another negative debate, that makes the NASC look like we are trying to pull something over on everybody. Which is not the case.
Laura, First off, me and Casper were not friends, I barley even knew him. I have never spoken with him in a pm or chat. The only time we have ever spoken were in heated debates on the forum, and we always seemed to be on opposite sides. Only thing I did was state some facts that were told to me. He has our money, and we had reason to believe that he he was dead or in a nursing home.You and April are the ones that came out saying he was a thief, which in my opinion could have been a liability on your part and could have opened up yourself to a lawsuit. I just wanted all the facts before I considered him a thief. I wanted some questions answered before I publicly said negative things about him. What is wrong with that? I never lied, or hid anything. I just wanted to make sure that he really stole our money before I accused him of it.
As far as I know, nobody that was on the board lied or withheld any info. The problem was that you and April publicly kept asking questions that we couldn't answer. I have called Paul (Casper) many times to try and find answers. But he never returned my calls. I did searches on the Internet and came up with nothing. Until about two weeks ago, it wasn't my place to go after him. It was Bugweeds, and coppers. And I had full faith that they were doing what they could. At the time you offered money to find him, it wasn't my place to accept, again I left that up to you, bug and Rose. I know my place in the NASC, and when I was over conservation and fiance, I knew that my place wasn't to be hunting down Casper. Unlike you, I had faith in Bug and Rose and I knew to stay out of something that didn't concern me.
You said we should have called a board meeting. How many have we called and nobody showed up? After months of NOTHING, Bug sent me a PM saying that we should just donate the money to something and give up on the NASC. I sent him a reply saying that I refused to give up and if it was the only way to save it I would take over as president. By the time I took over, there was no need to call a board meeting because 1) nobody attended anyway and 2) There wasn't really a board anymore anyway. So I had a decision to make, let the NASC die, or take over and give it one more shot. I decided to at least give it a shot.
"He who forgets the past is destined to relive it"
First thing I did was to take some time and decide what we did wrong the first time. I came to the conclusion that our biggest mistake was just as JeremiahWe had so many people that wanted to do something, but we didn't have our act together yet and so we had nothing for them to do. So they lost interest and stopped coming to the meetings.Originally Posted by [b
To fix that, I decided to get all of our paperwork in order, and have some type of organization before I sent out the word that there were going to be some major changes. I had planned to send an email to everybody that was involved last time and let them know what was happening, but I haven't got to it yet.
There are no behind the scenes secrets, no people going off on their own, and nobody is protecting Casper. Just people who want to do this the right way this time.What got me PO'ed was the same people making false accusations against us over and over. Laura you made statements many times that there were things going on behind the scenes, when there never were. I see the cause of all this stems from your false accusations.
Last time we learned to run but never learned to walk.
Wolfsrtker, I know you can't give me info or advice on what we should do. But can you please send me a pm with the steps we need to take if we wanted to prosecute?
There now all the "secrets" are all out in the open. There is nothing more that I think we can say. I'll be happy to answer any question, if I can. Although I refuse to make statements to anymore false accusations, or about Casper. I have told everything I know, and I don't have time to keep going over the same thing.
Glad to have helped! Call me anytime.Originally Posted by [b
Seriously, some people need to get a grip on this. IT ISN'T THAT BIG OF A DEAL. Big deal, some guy stole the money and ran....we should have entrusted someone like Tony, or Phil who are business OWNERS to handle the money if they would have had the time/willingness to do it. Or better yet, because you know it all, we should have entrusted you.
And on another side note, why do you even care about the Sarracenia "conservancy"? You hardly grow any pitcherplants from what you've todl me in the past...big deal a few bucks were stolen from you from some ransack runof the mill people. That can happen in real life. This argument is pointless and will not get any better, so thats my little tidbit. I have a life to live and I'm not bickering over $20 or so "stolen" from me.
"we should have entrusted someone like Tony, or Phil who are business OWNERS to handle the money if they would have had the time/willingness to do it."
Good point NepG. *It seems that was done this year with the funds going to Phil where I believe they will be safe--safe that is except for the specter of the Tax Man that was raised in these posts.
"...big deal a few bucks were stolen from you from some ransack runof the mill people. That can happen in real life. This argument is pointless and will not get any better, so thats my little tidbit. I have a life to live and I'm not bickering over $20 or so "stolen" from me."
Once again, NepG, I agree, and I DID particiapte in the 2004 auction. *It seems that the ones raising the biggest stink did not particiapte in, and were not affected by the auction. *I wonder why that is? *Maybe they're coming to my rescue!
My chicken legs taste like chicken--only less meaty.
Well, Ozzy, if yer gonna, SEEK AND DESTROY the Casper. I had Casper as lead on the word of a friend who thought Casper solid as a rock. Looks like he was wrong. That aside, I am still going to grow and pass around location plants. Anyone else who wishes to continue to grouse about things you cannot change, continue on.
Organize--SLOWLY--- the NASC.
Growers check in with Bugweed for seed information.
Start a grassroots growing program.
Pass plants freely between ourselves.
Species and Natural hybrids only.
Do the best you can.
THERE! Guidelines. Ozzy, relax. You have to be professional to do this, and you do not respond in the manner you did. With anyone. Otherwise, the organization will crumble beneath your feet. You need to find a more diplomatic way of dealing with situations. Above all, be fair, open, and honest. We all slip sometime, but don't slip all the time. Be nice.
Laura, too bad you have no patience. You won't be too successful with CP if you're not! If you are not staying on, then Good bye, but think about it first. Try not to come across like the Adjutant General, and take things one or two at a time while the organization that isn't there, takes some shape. Otherwise, your counsel is out of place if you ain't stayin'! We need those who know, but don't mow us down trying to do too much faster than it can be handled. No put down here, Laura. I am trying to get you to help us, one step at a time, slowly evlove. We are new at this, and all of us have lives to live, and sometimes, it really gets in the way. The lives, that is. I agree with Phil in the Botanique/ Nature Conservacy thing. Barry asked me to ask Rob to help out and be a part of, but I have not heard back from Rob at all. Rob's collection is staggering! Anyway, I am growing. Anyone want to help?? Laura?? Ozzy?? Capslock?? PAK?? William?? Noah?? Forbes?? Colieo?? NepG?? JBL???? Ron Lane??
45 yrs. growin\'
You know I'll continue to help Bugs! *Let's grow on (in plants, in spirit and in cooperation). *Rock on! *I still have some S. purpurea seed WITH location data left up for grabs in the trading forum. *Let's do as Bug suggests and be doers, not just sayers and/or slayers. *Actions speak louder than words, and I know that we can spread more good by doing a little SHARING and CARING right now.
P.S. I'll soon have a fair amount of 'Hurricane White' seed, so look for that post. I believe Laura informed me that these will not all be true white, some (maybe 25% ?) will revert to typical S. leucophylla color.
My chicken legs taste like chicken--only less meaty.
Iím just throwing out some ideas out to get it moving. I take no offence to anyone who thinks differently Iím just trying to get the ball rolling. Please post your ideas as well.
I think a web site should be a main priority right now. I know a few people said they would build the site if we had the web space we now have the space www.NASarracenia.org right so letís see who would be willing to build it. If they need any Sarrís photo I know I have a few they could use. We have about 3k, and for the money a web site would be very effective use of it even if we have to pay someone a small fee to set it up. Once we have the basic site up and running I know a few people who would be very interest at the Denver Botanical Gardens and I will talk with them.
How about a new email list? I could set that up if I can get every ones email.
Iím looking in to getting A 501 (c ) (3). A local orchid club is helping me out since I will be doing it for the CCPS I will let you know what it involves when I figure it out.
I for one would hate to see the í05 action money just go to someone else.