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VERY ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!

  • #21
Barry points out over and over that growing Sarrs in you backyard* and shipping their seeds to every corner of the globe is not conservation. Conservation is protecting, preserving and restoring the natural habitat and the natural/native populations.

Then there's the possibility that the guy is not selling oreophila seeds at all, just some other species or hybrid. After all it will take 2-4 years, if ever, for some one to determine what the seeds actually are ;)

*Unless of course your backyard is their natural habitat. Lucky you, need a housesitter? :p
 
  • #22
Amen, Bugweed ! Do it right or don't do it at all.
 
  • #23
If someone who might otherwise be in the market for a poached plant can be satisfied with a captive-bred plant or even some seeds, that's conservation. As I said, NASC members shouldn't condone what the seller is doing, but it's far from the greatest threat to Sarracenias. CITES can seem like a really stupid law in this situation yet, like many laws, it's better than any plausible alternative. In a situation like this, nevertheless, I look the other way and tell Colonel Klink, "I see nothing."
 
  • #24
Bruce!! I am suprised at you! You want a few oreophila seeds?? Say 50 or so? I give them for free. Money is what is the worst thing about CP. Especially Peter's prices at California Carnivores. nice plants, yes, but overpriced because of a dollar value placed on what should be available to everyone. So when you coax this guy to break the law, do it without me!!!!
 
  • #25
And if the seeds are poached and not home grown as the seller claims how is that conservation? The seller makes no effort to distribute the seeds legally, nor to show that they were obtained legally.
 
  • #26
No matter how you slice the pie, selling s. oerophila seed or plants worldwide, or across state/provincial lines, you have broken international law. Why you see this as a good thing, is beyond me. Money is NOT what these plants are about, and poaching plants for a profit is just plain criminal.
 
  • #27
Auction over, zero bids. Ha Ha!
 
  • #28
I'm not coaxing that person to break the law and see the sale as a bad thing, but not the worst thing for Sarracenias. There are plenty of oreophilas in captivity and the odds against those being poached seeds are astronomical. I'm glad there are plenty of people with seeds to spare and it helps reduce the poaching pressure. I wish that seller were like Bugweed and others here who aren't just looking to cash in on a harvest of seeds. But habitat loss is why oreophilas have so few places left to live, other than for pots in yards. Even if the last wild oreophila is lost to poaching, it'll be habitat loss that brought the species to that point and CITES does nothing about that.

I won't deny there's a some devil's advocate in what I've written. A mob attack under the cover of reports to eBay does accomplish something, but it doesn't accomplish a lot. NASC's reaction to things like this eBay sale could be to try coaxing "offenders" into being part of our solution. It would have to be one person, representing everyone, who tries to make the contact and establish a dialogue. It might work, at least some of the time.
 
  • #29
I hate to rain on the parade here, but I can tell you guys from "extensive experience": eBay will not pursue legal matters with items that specific laws in specific regions say is illegal. They will not do it. They will not release the information of their users to police for these things. They will not join you on your crusade.

The best you can hope for is that they pull the auction in a timely manner, but all the seller needs to do is return with another account. I've seen it a million times in a million different ways.

Reports them if it makes you feel better, or if it's just the right thing to do, but don't be too disappointed when they come back in a week. It will happen.
 
  • #30
I don't think there are restiction on S. oerophila in Canada. So unless he has sent these seed across International borders he has done nothing wrong...
 
  • #31
WEll it certainly isn't federally endangered up here since we don't HAVE it anywheres :D
 
  • #32
CITES is an international Convention. Canada signed as a party to it so the laws apply within Canada as well.

He has sold S. oreophila seeds internationally.

Look at a previous auction of S. oreophila seeds by the same seller. The buyer sells CPs and seeds with item location listed as Castle Hayne, NC, United States.

Here's another.. The buyer sells items from Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, United States
 
  • #33
So go kill him then, or figure out where he got the seeds from and stake it out- tho if it's on his property, I would say that this thread is a good example of people haveing NO understanding of the separation between the letter and the spirit of the law.

I hope that everyone here pushing for the harshest punishment has ALL the documents you'll need if the hammer ever falls on you.

OH and our depertment of Fish and Game?? That's like 3 dudes covering the whole of Canada, and deals with fishing and hunting, so unless the guy is carrying an unauthorized firearm and or catching more walleyes than he's allowed OR driking in a boat, I dunno how effective that's gonna be
 
  • #34
Especially Peter's prices at California Carnivores. nice plants, yes, but overpriced because of a dollar value placed on what should be available to everyone. So when you coax this guy to break the law, do it without me!!!!


Hehe, like 60 bucks for an regular spotted N. ampullaria lmao. I almost crapped my pants :-))

Have you guys not seen my thread? How could you NOT want to protect This?

I think these laws are stupid, too guys but for now they are the law and we have to respect that (Can you BELIEVE I said that about a law?!) These seeds may have come from his personal plant, but how do we know that wasn't poached? It may have come from the stand I took pictures of for all we know! The odds are stacked against these plants but why lower them even more by supporting people like this?
 
  • #35
The laws are not perfect. The board members of the NASC will probably be the first ones to tell you that.

However flaunting, disregarding, ignoring the laws or looking the other way is not going to change the laws. Nor will encouraging other to do so either. They can only be changed through education.
 
  • #36
And though the NASC is moving slowly (we could use some forum members help!) it is intended to distribute all Federally endangered plants and seed within the USA for free for any looking for these plants. Why buy when the NASC will be doing distribution for free, while the non threatened plants are shipped for the price of postage?? Illegally collecting DOES NOT help the cause. Nor help grow a collection. Documents will be supplied to any growing NASC Federally Endangered plants to prove their legality and keep us legal and above board. I would not want to be in this guys shoes if they decide to press the point.
 
  • #37
Oh, I think selling plants is sort of silly in many cases- I mean, it does take a bit of time and stuff, and if you really want to produce a huge amount, a fee is almost necessary if only to cover expenses incurred, but whatever- heck, some folks on the internet sell alll sorts of stuff that's free (once I found a site that sold crummy soundeffects for some stupid price, that's when I realized folks would try to seel ANYTHING if they think they can get away with it)

For my personal sharing of stuff, I rarely even charge shipping (not like I'm sending out uber rare stuff but still) cos it just seems somehow "alien" to the whole process- only plant material I ever "charged" anyone for was seomthing I donated to the auction actually :D


And CITES is an odd beast- I contacted the Canadian reps about bringin Cephs or Cephs parts into Canada across the border (they were CITES I think until 96 or something like that) and I had a long talk with the rep... I was told that something like say, Cephalotus is NOT on the "hot list" at the Canadian/US border, so no CITES permits would be required. The reasopn Cephs aren't a problem here?? they are in propagation enough that the liklihood of anyone travelling all the way to where they grow is too low to warant maintaining the "watch" here- it very well could be different in Australia, but since they aren't a NA species, it is not an issue here.

He DID tell me that crtossing the border with ANY North American pitcher plant would likely bring problems tho, but I do believe that our provinces are differently set up than US states, he wasn't very clear at ALL on inter provincial traffic...

Anyways, yeah, selling these seeds is goofy and against the Letter of the law, but I highly doubt that the spirit of the law is being broken, and that's my take, kinda Platonian
 
  • #38
And though the NASC is moving slowly (we could use some forum members help!) it is intended to distribute all Federally endangered plants and seed within the USA for free for any looking for these plants. Why buy when the NASC will be doing distribution for free, while the non threatened plants are shipped for the price of postage?? Illegally collecting DOES NOT help the cause. Nor help grow a collection. Documents will be supplied to any growing NASC Federally Endangered plants to prove their legality and keep us legal and above board. I would not want to be in this guys shoes if they decide to press the point.

Why not take it upon yourself as founder of the NASC to contact this person, explain who you are, and ask them if they are aware of what they are doing? If your aim is to educate, here's your perfect opportunity. If this person replies and his intentions are what you suspect, you can take whatever action you feel is appropriate.

Even if they know what they're doing is illegal, this does not mean that they're deaf to reasoning. You might even be able to bargain with him to convince him to stop his practices. This guy is most likely out to make a profit, not to destroy a species.

You might just teach him something he doesn't know, and you MIGHT just make a friend.
 
  • #39
No one is ever out to destroy a species, it's ALWAYS about profit and that's the problem.
 
  • #40
Propagatin plants to sell isn't against the law, and putting stupid prices on stuff isn't either, if the profit is your only complaint you live in the wrong country Clint :D

Good Post, Jeztor, BTW
 
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