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Thread: U.S. National Sarracenia Collection

  1. #137

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    Oh, and another thing.

    I think I might have an idea of why Carl Mazur may be negative on the idea of a Sarracenia collection, or why he thinks I am negative about it.

    Specifically, I did speak with him at length about this on the phone. I cautioned him that a Sarracenia collection should be considered "conservation" with caution. You see, a bog may have populations of 60 species of wetland plants, only three of which are carnivorous. Suppose one of those carnivorous populations is a pitcher plant, of which there are 600 plants.

    Suppose you took 3 pitcher plants for the National collection.
    First off, the 59 other species are out of luck. Also, the genetic diversity represented by the 597 non-collected pitcher plants is not "captured" by your sample. Sure, you did capture for protection SOME of the genetic diversity of that one species, but think of how much you didn't catch.

    This is why "ex situ" conservation is always less desireable than "in situ" conservation.

    But it is better than nothing....

    Perhaps it was these concerns and qualifications which convinced Carl I was not interested in this kind of project.

    Later!
    Carnivorous Plant Newsletter
    Co-editor

  2. #138
    It's been one of dem days BigCarnivourKid's Avatar
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    Re: the nomination period:

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Tamlin Dawnstar @ Feb. 15 2004,16:29)].............Unless there is a motion to the contrary, this call for nominations will remain in effect for a week: longer if the assembly feels it is needed.


    Are there any more nominations for the Office of President of the Sarracenia First National Democratic Collection?
    That means the call for nominations ends this Sunday, Feb. 22, 2004 @ 16:29. Unless it is felt more time is needed for nominations.

    BCK
    ---Steve Allinger---

    How come chicken fingers are bigger than buffalo wings?

    My Grow List

  3. #139
    Moderator Schmoderator Fluorescent fluorite, England PlantAKiss's Avatar
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    I think all our nominees have declined. Do we have any more nominations...even SELF nominations?
    "Fox terriers are born with about four times as much original sin in them as other dogs." - Jerome K. Jerome

  4. #140

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    I have not declined. After a long conversation with "Bugweed" I have decided to accept the nomination as stands. I think this project has the potential to become a reality and I would be honored to head it up.

    I would like to hear others thought on this, and to hear anymore nominations at this time.


    Paul

  5. #141

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    I would agree to that myself, but a vote may be in order. PAK, what do you say. Also I would like to present a Name for our group. I would like to name us : Sarracenia National Collection and Preservation Society. "Conservation through Stewardship." It will give us a start and a place to work from. Any objections?
    45 yrs. growin\'
    Founder NASC

  6. #142

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    Greetings Forum

    I’ve (Carl Mazur) have been very quiet on this topic publicly and have only spoken privately only with Mr. Rice, Mr. Dawnstar, Mr Garcia, and Mr. Millar. Today I took the time to take a serious read of the National Collection Thread. I feel it is time comment publicly. I hope y’all take the time to read this posting carefully and not just skim through it. It has taken me a long time to prepare this.

    As I tried to say in my first mail Mr. Dawnstar, there are two ways to do something, what I called the “right way” and what I called “the wrong way”. Let me clarify that for all of you. I think what I meant to say is that there is a right way and a “more right” way. What y’all are proposing is very noble, and completely excellent, and does has my COMPLETE support. I support it fully as a both a CP hobbyist enthusiasts and 20 year grower of Sarracenia. So, please don’t think I’m trying to kybosh things or stop your momentum. As Mr. Rice, as a “rogue group” y’all can do as you like, me included! The more right way, is in my opinion the more politically correct way. A way that would make this a fully supported and sanctioned project with key players like USFW, ICPS, State Natural Heritage programs, ABG and other. This would give more access to “legally” collected plant material as well as a wider range of rare plant material from rare populations, as well as hopefully, the ability to LEGALLY share and disseminate Appendix 1 plants.

    However, y’all have to understand I have two hats to wear here. Hat 1, Sarracenia grower, and a person who will do anything he can to help out with this project!!!! I have lots of plants with lots of accurate provenance data, all of which I want to share. Hat 2, ICPS president. In that capacity I have to take into account many other things. The most important thing is legalities. One of the most important species to have in this conservancy project are the appendix 1 plants, jonesii, oreophila and alabamensis. These plants are both illegal to collect and send between states in the US without proper paperwork (In Canada we can send appendix 1 anywhere within the boarders…Barry Correct me if I’m wrong about the US laws.) The ICPS and ABG have worked very hard over the years promoting stewardship and population enhancement of appendix 1 and other rare sarracenia populations. The Alabamensis Distribution project is just one example.

    In my “more right” approach, it is my hope to get LEGAL appendix 1 plants from all known and extinct populations and make it legal to share them with other growers throughout the US. This will be a very difficult task. Mr. Rice knows what sort of headache that caused with the alabamensis project. Regardless of that happening or not, my concern is the ICPS PUBLICLY endorsing a group who will be illegally collecting plant and seed material and quite possibly collecting and illegally shipping Appendix 1 material. That would look very bad. It’s a thin line between conscience and legality. What is right and what is legal are sometimes two different things. This clearly seems to be one of those cases. I was hoping, in my role as ICPS president to bridge that gap.

    That is why I was hoping to follow the “more right approach”. By coming up with a proposal and gaining the support of the proper authorities, I would be able make this a very credible group, one supported both financially and legally by hopefully the ICPS and the appropriate Government agencies.

    Maybe my vision is far too pie in the sky!

    Anyway, I want y’all to know that as a grower and fellow sarracenia lover, I fully endorse your work, and support the project. There are some very enthusiastic people on this forum and now that a group is forming and organizing, I see great things happening, and lend my “unofficial” services. I like the idea of the seed repository idea as way of getting the project started. A database of growers and a uniform coding system is great too. I truly solute all of you for your work, dedication and enthusiasm. I will continue to read this forum and add my 2 cents when possible.

    However, I need y’all to understand, that in my role as ICPS president, there are legal, ethical and political implications of what you are proposing. Because of these reasons, I don’t think it will fly with ICPS and other groups like the USFW, Natural heritage etc. there I don’t think it will gain support of the government agencies… not that that’s a bad thing, great things can still be done!

    Before I ramble farther, I just want to kick this idea out for discussion. What if this group is responsible for all Sarracenia species, sub species forms etc, other than ones specifically under the control of the Federal authorities, namely appendix 1 sarracenia species. I would hate to see people here going out to appendix 1 sites collecting seed and or plants for this project… it can only lead to disaster!

    So those are my thoughts. I hope y’all look at these carefully and truly try to understand the position I’m in. I support y’all 100% on a personal basis, but cannot support y’all on an official basis with modification to the plans.

    In closing I’d like to say thanks to Mr. Garcia and Mr. Millar for bringing this proposal to me. As previously stated, I’d like to be part of this on a personal basis, but at this point in time would like to keep my “official” hat uninvolved.

    ------
    Just a note for those who do not know. Mr. Garcia is Brooks..."SarraceniaObsessed"; Mr. Millar is "Bugweed"



    Sincerly,

    CJM

  7. #143

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    Group, I have alredy responded to Carl's worries on the collecting issues he brought up here. I have assusred Carl that no field collecting will be done without permission (rescues an exception), and no one touches appendix 1 plants until all legalities are taken care of. We would like the ICPS to assist us, not be breathing down our necks. I informed Carl that we are after collected locale species first, then we will get down to business and collect with all permits and permission necessary to do the job we ache to do; preserving our plants, getting them back into the wild via our seedling and seed program, and into the hands of loving growers in the US. Carl will handle Canada as we discussed with him months ago, and I am sure there is no shortage of willing people to help out in Canada. This is for us all, and we must take great pains to let our Government Agencies know, we are serious, law abiding people, and we have a job to do to the benefit of our land and our country.
    45 yrs. growin\'
    Founder NASC

  8. #144
    Moderator Schmoderator Fluorescent fluorite, England PlantAKiss's Avatar
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    Thanks to Carl Mazur for clarifying his position....and thank you for your support in any way you can, official or unofficial. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] As long as the job gets done.

    Casper...I think it would be great if you wanted to take the helm. You have my support.
    "Fox terriers are born with about four times as much original sin in them as other dogs." - Jerome K. Jerome

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