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U.S. National Sarracenia Collection
- Thread starter PlantAKiss
- Start date
I've been thinking about this, and can't see what D'Amato, or Cook, or PFT would have to do with this discussion. This isn't about them, it's about sarracenia pitcher plants, and their preservation through stewardship. They have theirs already. I know Peter D'Amato personally, and count him one of my friends, but this is not concerning him. He has a collection of everything that would melt your eyes with all the beauty and species he has. But this concerns growers everywhere. Our heritage in the bogs is disappearing at an alarming rate. Bob Hanrahan bought a bog just to preserve some, 40 acres worth. His are inter mixed and interspersed among each other, so a whole lot has changed in these plants because of the nature of an open bog. Everyone is x-pollinating with everyone else, so the diversity is all mixed up. Each bog, because of the different plants in them, are all unique in themselves, and what we want to do, is preserve that diversity from that location. Plants from Citronelle/Deer Park in Alabama, Milton, Florida, Wilkerson's Bog, Chipola, Florida, Wilma, Florida, Sandy Creek Road, Wewahitchka, Florida. Plants from all over, available to those who want to preserve their genetics, preserve the diversity of the bog they came from, and to distribute to any who want these locale seeds, and seedlings if you cultivate. The more common the plant becomes, the less desirable to those who would poach them, and in our favor as they would be easy to procure, and everybody wins.
You underestimate yourself, Mijako. The plants very well could disappear without you. You are more important than you know to these threatened populations. Give yourself some credit, guy, and a chance to become an expert by remaining with this Forum, whether you decide to come along with us or not. Your word here does mean something whether you realize it or not. And so far, I have met the best people on this Forum, and not the other I left behind in favor of a place to breathe freely.
nepenthes gracilis
Nepenthes Specialist
Bugweed, what I'm saying is, the "big boys" since they are soo envolved in these plants, wouldn't they want to help the environment? I mean cmon, let's snap to reality and think about this in D'amato's book he mentions conservation, well this is an absolute ordeal that requires that. Aren't most fo these plants state protected anyhow?
Nep G,
Sure the Big Boys are interested in both conservation and preservation. We are all equal in our love for the plants. It's just when it comes to the actual formation and realization of the National Collection, they are more equal than others.
I remain ready to serve and assembly that chooses to act, but the meeting house is dark and silent except for a few impassioned members. It's time to adjourn.
Let's hope that the deal we get from the Big Boys is a fair one, and that it finds a way to provide for Joe Needaplant's addiction. I spoke with Joe, and he is not happy. He is oiling up his digging spade and is planning a trip to as many remaining pitcher plant stands as possible, while they are still there, so he can do the "right" thing in his mind. He's going to dig up some plants to preserve them from the the forces of commodification, carelessness and control.
I can no longer say if he is not right.
So, in the end, nothing has changed. Whether the plants are stolen now by Joe, or whether they were stolen in the past by the leaders of the scientific community, business concerns, or the Big Boys themselves: the theft will continue.
Right ot wrong? At this stage, it is hard to tell. If someone had not acted unethically in the past, there would be no material or hope now for any "national" collection. I find it a bitter irony, a cosmic catch 22.
These stolen plants which you all hold in trust must trickle down to other concerned growers in exactly the manner that they have been: through the mechanisms of generosity and education, by which we might keep some of this material alive for another few decades. Hopefully by then there will be some sort of central shelter to place them that will seek to serve something more than its own end.
Guard this material well, keep it pure, spread the wealth and the education needed to maintain it.
If generosity and democracy fails to be incorporated into the very nature of any such collection, about all our grandchildren will have is a copy of Jim Millers CD, a bunch of stories told by old men of the good old days, a greehouse of hoplelessly introgressed material.
This flurry of interest was sparked by the question of a teenaged new forum member named Finch, who asked "Where is everyone"?
The answer now has to be, we are here, waiting on the decisions of those with the power to make or break depending on the depth of their vision to which we cannot contribute or advise, while we flop our hands uselessly in the air, and cry into our pitcher plants.
Joe Needaplant is standing with his thumb in the dam, trying to keep the sea of extinction from flooding our pitcher plant plains. I wish him the very best in his efforts.
Sure the Big Boys are interested in both conservation and preservation. We are all equal in our love for the plants. It's just when it comes to the actual formation and realization of the National Collection, they are more equal than others.
I remain ready to serve and assembly that chooses to act, but the meeting house is dark and silent except for a few impassioned members. It's time to adjourn.
Let's hope that the deal we get from the Big Boys is a fair one, and that it finds a way to provide for Joe Needaplant's addiction. I spoke with Joe, and he is not happy. He is oiling up his digging spade and is planning a trip to as many remaining pitcher plant stands as possible, while they are still there, so he can do the "right" thing in his mind. He's going to dig up some plants to preserve them from the the forces of commodification, carelessness and control.
I can no longer say if he is not right.
So, in the end, nothing has changed. Whether the plants are stolen now by Joe, or whether they were stolen in the past by the leaders of the scientific community, business concerns, or the Big Boys themselves: the theft will continue.
Right ot wrong? At this stage, it is hard to tell. If someone had not acted unethically in the past, there would be no material or hope now for any "national" collection. I find it a bitter irony, a cosmic catch 22.
These stolen plants which you all hold in trust must trickle down to other concerned growers in exactly the manner that they have been: through the mechanisms of generosity and education, by which we might keep some of this material alive for another few decades. Hopefully by then there will be some sort of central shelter to place them that will seek to serve something more than its own end.
Guard this material well, keep it pure, spread the wealth and the education needed to maintain it.
If generosity and democracy fails to be incorporated into the very nature of any such collection, about all our grandchildren will have is a copy of Jim Millers CD, a bunch of stories told by old men of the good old days, a greehouse of hoplelessly introgressed material.
This flurry of interest was sparked by the question of a teenaged new forum member named Finch, who asked "Where is everyone"?
The answer now has to be, we are here, waiting on the decisions of those with the power to make or break depending on the depth of their vision to which we cannot contribute or advise, while we flop our hands uselessly in the air, and cry into our pitcher plants.
Joe Needaplant is standing with his thumb in the dam, trying to keep the sea of extinction from flooding our pitcher plant plains. I wish him the very best in his efforts.
[b said:
This is not true. In order to recieve non-profit status on both the Federal and state level one of the following must be met:
Charitable purpose is defined in section 501©(3) as providing services beneficial to the public interest.
Now, its quite easy to say that we meet this requirement. We are providing a service of collecting and maintaining plants that are in danger of being lost. We are providing a service to the next generation of being able to admire these plants as we do.
Next:
Scientific research that is carried on in the public interest qualifies for tax-exempt status; however, research incidental to commercial or industrial operations does not qualify.
Same deal, easy to see how we could qualify under this as well.
The educational purpose is a broad purpose that allows instruction for both self-development and the benefit of the community.
Quite easy to see how we would be an orginazation that educates as well. So, from where I sit, we meet 3 of the requirements to form a non-profit inc. while only 1 need be met.
I have passed our proposal on to an attorny who is going to look over it for us pro-bono. We do meet the requirements though.
As far as respect, why do we care who respects us and who doesn't. If any want to help, than thats great, but we shall not simply quit because we don't get the respect of the "elite few".
Paul
I hope that I am not being a voice of negativity in this discussion. I support the idea of a project that will informally preserve these plants. I would be willing to support it formally if there appeared to be both the plauability and member support for it. It's a little early to decide if there will be member support for a project that is in its infant stage of planning.
I am not a person easily discouraged. Even if there is no other person either in this formum or elsewhere in the world that would support this project, I would slowly engage it myself. This supports a goal that I set for myself that may be beyong my capabilities, but I'm willing to undertake. For those of you who don't know this (most of you) I manage the CP collection at Seattle Central Community College. We have a pathetic collection as yet, but I've been working to improve that. We are in the proccess of building a an impressive new greenhouse with an inground bog and the space for a great collection. Since the purpose of the college is education and I've found the general public to be completely unaware that there are even CPs in North America, our goal has been to establish a collection primarily of North American CPs. At least one of each. And more as well, but that's the base goal. I know it's nothing that I'll succeed at, but I need a vision and that's what I've chosen and maybe my successors will eventually pull it off.
I think a small group of impassioned people is a great way to start a project like this. But we need more than people posting random thoughts on the latest idea. We need that too to maintain active contact with each other, but we need a clear plan of action. I want to detail some of the ideas that I think the concensus has approved an dget some reactions to them.
We have established that we are interested in creating a documented National Collection of Sarrecenia. How we are to go about establishing the collection is still up for debate.
We have established that we are interested in forming a formal or informal group of people dedicated to this project. We have not discussed how such a group would be organized or run.
We have established that we are either incapable of, or not interested in, scientific credibility with our project, but willing to pursue it on a persoal level anyway.
We have established that it should include all species, ssp, varieties and forms of Sarrecenia with a healthy represenation of each. This is a matter that I think is in heated debate concerning the representation of every population from the wild.
We are in debate about the collection of represenative plants from each population from the wild.
We have established that we want the collection to be well documented and should preserve the integrity of each group of plants as well as can be.
I think we should attempt to clarify some of these issues in open forum discussion. This is a big list to discuss here, but it has to be covered.
Jason the Monk
I am not a person easily discouraged. Even if there is no other person either in this formum or elsewhere in the world that would support this project, I would slowly engage it myself. This supports a goal that I set for myself that may be beyong my capabilities, but I'm willing to undertake. For those of you who don't know this (most of you) I manage the CP collection at Seattle Central Community College. We have a pathetic collection as yet, but I've been working to improve that. We are in the proccess of building a an impressive new greenhouse with an inground bog and the space for a great collection. Since the purpose of the college is education and I've found the general public to be completely unaware that there are even CPs in North America, our goal has been to establish a collection primarily of North American CPs. At least one of each. And more as well, but that's the base goal. I know it's nothing that I'll succeed at, but I need a vision and that's what I've chosen and maybe my successors will eventually pull it off.
I think a small group of impassioned people is a great way to start a project like this. But we need more than people posting random thoughts on the latest idea. We need that too to maintain active contact with each other, but we need a clear plan of action. I want to detail some of the ideas that I think the concensus has approved an dget some reactions to them.
We have established that we are interested in creating a documented National Collection of Sarrecenia. How we are to go about establishing the collection is still up for debate.
We have established that we are interested in forming a formal or informal group of people dedicated to this project. We have not discussed how such a group would be organized or run.
We have established that we are either incapable of, or not interested in, scientific credibility with our project, but willing to pursue it on a persoal level anyway.
We have established that it should include all species, ssp, varieties and forms of Sarrecenia with a healthy represenation of each. This is a matter that I think is in heated debate concerning the representation of every population from the wild.
We are in debate about the collection of represenative plants from each population from the wild.
We have established that we want the collection to be well documented and should preserve the integrity of each group of plants as well as can be.
I think we should attempt to clarify some of these issues in open forum discussion. This is a big list to discuss here, but it has to be covered.
Jason the Monk
The comments by Carl Mazur aren't as bad as they appear. He says that the ICPS could perhaps help with that sort of thing with some of the rarer species. Perhaps two collections, one of the rarest plants, with the ICPS sanction, and one consisting of more common species that is unsanctioned and mostly in the hands of private growers? He may not be able to help with everything, but he isn't refusing outright.
I feel the same way about Carl Mazur. I know if it were up to him, he would bend over backward to make this work. But, the constraints of the ICPS, even upon themselves, make the process overlong, and too drawn out. By the time they do move, too many more stands will be gone. I have mentioned before, and I will again, you can legally collect species in Florida with a State sanctioned collecting permit. This rule has not as yet been changed. Many other location plants are in collections all over the place, and they need to be found. I have one Botanical Garden I am looking into, headed up by Judith Finn, that has location data with all plants field collected, and they have quite a few. I will seek her help, as well as some growers here in the Bay Area, who also have location species. I am willing to give up my leucophylla Schnell's Ghost, just so everyone can have a piece of it. I even know where it came from, and all that. We need a central place for seed distribution, or send it to other growers ourselves. Carl is a good man, but his hands are tied by their own ICPS rules. But I know Carl is in favor of saving all we can, but follow the guidelines. If you know someone with a beautiful stand on their property, Get permission from the landowner, and be discretionary about your collecting, and remember your responsibility to the land. We are trying to help, not get ourselves or any organization into trouble. We do not need every plant. We should think, perhaps, on now setting down guidelines. Like for instance, Go after collected plants first in the form of seed and divisions. Second, collect seed caps and 3 to 6 plants (if necessary) for genetic diversity. I do favor seed, but that would mean most members would wait 5 to 7 years for a plant to mature and flower and start producing for the Sarracenia Growers Society(not the name, suggestion only), otherwise, seedlings could be sprouted and spread to all who ask. Just some thoughts.
PlantAKiss
Moderator Schmoderator Fluorescent fluorite, Engl
Bugweed,
It is fitting and proper that you lead this venture. To this end, I am appointing you Chairman pro-tem since I have some obligations that will keep me offline for a spell. The concept originated with you and Brooks, and as there is nothing I can direct, I am withdrawing. I wish you the best with your work, and am ready to contribute what little I can towards the realization of your excellent vision.
It is fitting and proper that you lead this venture. To this end, I am appointing you Chairman pro-tem since I have some obligations that will keep me offline for a spell. The concept originated with you and Brooks, and as there is nothing I can direct, I am withdrawing. I wish you the best with your work, and am ready to contribute what little I can towards the realization of your excellent vision.
nepenthes gracilis
Nepenthes Specialist
We already have support, and that is the people on this Forum. I am not depending on any one person, or any one place for help or support, as we have already experienced what the status quo does for you. As little as possible. We are going to do it, or we are not, but if you just let it die a lingering death, how can you live with that? Doing nothing, gains you nothing, and you will get what you deserve. I am for saving these location species for future preservation, and will do as much of it alone as I can if that is what is necessary. This project is worth its weight in gold, and you will reap the benefits of being a steward in saving a small protion of this planet. It still is open for discussion.
Hi Guys,
Just reading the amazing discussion, hopefully this link to the NCCPG will work this time for you guys..
http://www.nccpg.com
You will need a cross reference system as you propagate plants so that way you know where that plant came from. I think there is enough material in the US without having to field collect. It is upto the people with the larger collections to share, code and list their plants. That way the 'true' plants never need to be 'lost' and accuracy is assured..
Just reading the amazing discussion, hopefully this link to the NCCPG will work this time for you guys..
http://www.nccpg.com
You will need a cross reference system as you propagate plants so that way you know where that plant came from. I think there is enough material in the US without having to field collect. It is upto the people with the larger collections to share, code and list their plants. That way the 'true' plants never need to be 'lost' and accuracy is assured..
nepenthes gracilis
Nepenthes Specialist
Before we do much else, we really need to get an election done so that we have a leader. Only then can we appoint committees and start work for real.
I have been thinking for a code system and can't come up with a much better one than a hybrid between Mike King's and the ICPS one. Here is an example tag with the system.
There would have to be an internet based chart that everybody had access to.
I have made an example here.
http://home.petflytrap.com/snowyfalcon/example.xls
What do ya think? Any comments on documentation like this?
SF
I have been thinking for a code system and can't come up with a much better one than a hybrid between Mike King's and the ICPS one. Here is an example tag with the system.
There would have to be an internet based chart that everybody had access to.
I have made an example here.
http://home.petflytrap.com/snowyfalcon/example.xls
What do ya think? Any comments on documentation like this?
SF
