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Thread: U.S. National Sarracenia Collection

  1. #41

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    This is a wonderful idea. Once this is organized and setup, I would be willing to make an effort to obtain seed from Sarracenia purpurea growing in Ohio. At this time, I have not had any success as the Nature Conservancy does not allow the collection of seed. I have asked about doing so to allow the Ohio variants to be distributed to various growers to help eliminate possible poaching and to possibly re-establish depleted populations in the future.
    Nick

    Careful where you crawl, it might be a trap!

    http://www.carnivorium.com
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  2. #42
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    Well Tamlin, it seems that things are at a cross-road. Proceed in an unrecognized, although organized, fashion or wait for the bureaucracy to fight over it. It sounds quite unlikely that it would ever be endorsed, as there are too many agencies to satisfy: TNC, USFW.
    I have to admit that I've been critical of the whole idea because, the number of plants that this involves is too large for anyone to maintain. I've mentioned that seed collection might be a more viable option. Also, I worry that some might see it as an opportunity to recklessly collect material for personal reasons. Beyond these critisisms, I aplaud efforts to do "something" to preserve these plants. Quite honestly, almost nothing is being done, outside of Appendix I plants.

    Good luck, you mentioned that "it would be a mountain to climb."
    imduff

  3. #43

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    I encourage everyone to be patiant and wait for a sactioned plan. The people at the ICPS love CPs as much as the people on this site. They're the lucky ones who work with these plants for a living. They can see the passion the members of this site have for these plants and the passion to preserve them. We must all work together even if it takes time. This is too important to go off and implement without the input from the experts! It may be a hard sell but most things worth while do not come easy. Everyone out there currently growing these plants, propagate them and get them out to other enthusiasts. Keep an eye out for unscrupulas plant sellers and support any local and or national conservation efforts that you can. If we are patient and persistant we can get a sactioned plan in place and save these beautiful plants!

    Glenn

  4. #44
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    I agree to wait for the sanctioned plan, but I would like to see one more thing. This has nothing to do with collection or preservation of plants, but of information. Carl is right, plants do not need to be collected from all the sites, but there should be a written record of all the sites (excluding of course every roadside ditch and the like, but maintaining the fact that there were such) and what plants they held. Someday maybe society will awaken to the horror of what has happen to our country's, our world's, eco-system and wish to attempt a restoration. This can not be done without records.
    I am just like a Super Hero, but without the power or motivation.................and the funky suit.

  5. #45
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    Tamlin said

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I have replied to Carl that I am willing (gladly) to step out of this if he is willing to assume this pro tem presidency. Carl has made some very good points, and I agree with most of them. Although I feel he has jumped to conclusions in some regards, I feel this is his vision and hope that all will work to support it

    We have broached the concept in Forum, and stand ready to assist. This is enough for me for now. IF the ICPS officers truely wish to organize and direct our consitiuancy, let them come forward and take the gavel and proceed.
    Ok tamlin, just keep us updated on the progress of this, ok?
    that makes no logic

  6. #46
    Moderator Schmoderator Fluorescent fluorite, England PlantAKiss's Avatar
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    Hmm. I don't remember seeing any mention of the ICPS in Mike King's description of how he achieved NSC recognition. (I couldn't get to the link he provided to work so I couldn't read about that organization). The ICPS is INTERNATIONAL isn't it? So...am I reading it right that since the ICPS wasn't overseeing his UK collection process...its basically just a sarracenia collection growing in his backyard?

    I know this project is complicated and demanding with a need for a certain protocol, expertise and guidelines, and calls for the support of as many people and organizations as possible (including the ICPS of course). I am not naive about that. But...isn't it about a collection thats "for the people, BY the people". It would be, after all, a NATIONAL collection. A nation IS "the people". Its not an "ICPS Collection."

    I'm sorry but that read a bit like "If WE don't do it, it doesn't count." I have always respected and been appreciative of having an organization like the ICPS in existance and the people that commit to endless hours of work for it. But I must say I am surprised by the response to this idea. Not one drop of encouragement to a group of enthusiastic people willing to ACT now and do something to secure the future of U.S. sarracenia. I am not trying to disrespect Mr. Mazur here just because I question his attitude.

    "The ICPS" appears to be saying "Stop...YOU can't do this and we won't help you if you go ahead with it." Barry can't be "bothered" with the issue. ICPS won't help unless "they" do it. It sounds like a great idea to me...so...how long do we wait until "THE ICPS" actually starts working on this?

    I thought the important thing here is the PLANTS. How many plants and sites will disappear while the we wait for "sanction"? Perhaps I am misinformed, but my understanding is, its takes 1-2 years to get a cultivar published. I wonder what the time line would be for the ICPS to establish a NSC.... [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif[/img]

    I think the humble, nobody "backyard growers" are the ones keeping a lot of these plants in existence. Sarracenia ARE already in a national collection of sorts...spread out in private collections across the U.S. (and world). I thought the idea (simply put) was to put these plants all together in specific safe-houses, so to speak, to ensure their future with skilled care and propagation.

    Is it about "sanctions"...or the plants?

    OK...so we, the people, don't know anything and WE can't do this. I'm all ears to hear what the ICPS has in the works for this project. I know this isn't an idea new to the group. Hasn't this issue been brought up and discussed before this topic appeared? What steps have been taken to get this going? Who has been appointed and what committees set up? How is the word being spread about this project? Who has been contacted and what resources are available?

    I know...I'm a "nobody"...I'm not on the ICPS board and I don't have a bunch of letters after my name and I'm one of those #### "backyard growers" who doesn't know all the genetic traits of every pitcher plant in the country. BUT... at least I am willing to contribute NOW in any way I can to accomplish this long-term goal. And without the membership of "the people", the ICPS would be nothing more than a handful of knowledgeable men with good ideas and intentions.

    What a sad day to see bureacracy put the brakes on a group of enthusiastic and caring people will to ACT to save the plants they care about. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif[/img]

    And yeah...I know...I'll piss off a bunch of "important" people with my ignorance and unwillingness to stand down because the gods-on-high said "NO!" I don't understand why "THE ICPS" can't support this fine group of energetic, caring people and tap the resources offered here.

    Instead of fanning the flames of enthusiasm and energy and using it to achieve a wonderful goal, the hose was turned on to douse the spirit. Never thought I'd see that happen on a conservation issue.... Most conservationists have to beg and plead for support and volunteers.
    "Fox terriers are born with about four times as much original sin in them as other dogs." - Jerome K. Jerome

  7. #47
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    I have to agree with much of what Plant a Kiss mentions. I hate to see all the enthusiasm crushed by the opinions of two people. I'll restate my previous position; this will never see the sanction of the ICPS. For many reasons this won't "fly" because, there is too much red tape.
    I've discussed this entire thread with someone well-informed in the CP community. He has seen habitat after habitat destroyed by urbanization or pine plantation. He too aplauds the intentions of of those involved in doing "something." I personally can think of 5 sites that I love to visit but, realize that one day they'll be gone. These are large, well-known sites that have shown signs of near future development. Is anyone currently doing anything for the plants at these sites? NO. One of these sites will become a housing development and another will become commercial property.
    I'd like to mention an idea that could work but, wouldn't be easy (or inexpensive). Natural habitat could be purchased somewhere in the SE US. Not an existing pitcher plant bog but, suitable habitat. This site could be planted with all the the collected material and maintained by annual burning. The flowers would have to be removed to prevent hybridizing but, that's a minor detail. Essentially, you would have a Sarracenia park. This has been done privately in several locations with great success. As well as we can grow these plants in pots, they thrive in natural habitats.

    imduff

  8. #48
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    I agree with Carl Mazur in that it would be impossible to keep every strain from every population in the US in one collection. However, sitting around another twenty years discussing the problem and then only maintaining some 60-100 strains in cultivations is also not an option, imo. Just because it isn't radically different enough to be registered as a subspecies isn't enough reason for me not go grow this Sarracenia alata 'alabama roadside'.



    The hardest thing about having a national collection of a size that could include plants like this would be the concerns about where to keep it and how to fund it. I have a different idea that solves both of these problems, somewhat.

    We would need one or more collection points. At these sights, we would collect a few plants or seeds from a few sites a year, maybe a few dozen a year at the most. We would begin with sites that are most immediatelly threatened. These plants/seeds would be grown out and distributed to responsible growers with the space and ability to grow them. As each plant variety gets distributed, a new variety is brought to the collection point(s). This way we would be continually bringing in new genetic variability (or "heritage", as Mr. Mazur calls it) into cultivation. This would be a slow, organized, and well thought out process. We can not have everyone going to the bog most immedietally in their area and ripping out plants. We must have a plan before anyone does anything. Once the plants are in cultivation, stage two of my plan comes in.

    Have you heard of the seed savers exchange? They are a group of roughly a thousand people throughout the world, most of them in the US, who are dedicated to "keeping alive" heirloom flower, vegetable, fruit, and grain varieties. Thousands of varieties are dying out simply because the commercial sector has found varieties that, though they might not taste as good, last longer. Anywho, the way the society works is this: Interested growers aquire a variety of seed. They grow this variety out, being carefull about cross-pollination, etc. They harvest the seed from the varieties they grew, and then re-offer them to the other members in a yearly "yearbook". Other members can buy seeds (all varieties cost the same, just above the cost of shipping/packaging) to grow out. Often members listing seeds will indicate that the seeds can only be purchased if you agree to re-offer the next generation of seeds. By doing this, they are keeping thousands of varieties of heirloom fruits and veggies from extinction. Over 3000 varieties of tomatoes alone are offered in the yearbook! Red, white, green, black, pink, you name it... taste ranging over the whole scale, almost everything that has ever been offered commercially and thousands that haven't.

    Now, keeping a collection of 10000 fruits, vegetables and grains alive would be a task that one organization, university, or private party COULD NEVER manage. And yet, this "collection" exists. It doesn't exist in one place, but rather in many collections scattered throughout the US. This has several advantages.

    1. Nobody has a load larger than they can manage.
    2. We don't have all of our eggs in one basket. A storm, bad freeze, or disease doesn't wipe out large parts of the collection.
    3. Funding is private and voluntary - there is not cover costs to handle, except for the costs of putting out the yearbook.

    As you will by now have guessed, my point with all this is that a national sarracenia collection could be maintained in this same way. Think about it:

    If we have only a few locations that are growing all the sarr. varieties in the world, then propagating and shipping them, we could cover the entire state of vermont! Every single strain left on the face of the planet, times all those sarracenia lovers who want them. That is a TON of work and space to expect from just a few growers for more than the first few years needed to get it started.

    If we maintain the collection by sending seeds however, all that needs to be maintained is a few plants per person to provide the seed.

    We could make a national database that lists for each variety who is growing that variety. Those who have received plants from collection system would be registered in this database. Anyone interested in growing a particular strain would contact one of the current growers for seed. If we are worried about not putting our cp nurseries out of business, this would allow them to have the "monopoly" on plant sales, while we merely distribute seed.

    Think about the benefits:

    Firstly, the housing and maintanance costs would be reduced to the maintanance of a collection of a few dozen plants per year. The rest of the costs of growing, taking care of, and sending seeds of the national collection would be divided between private growers, who choose which and how many plants to take on, and don't mind shelling out a few bucks to grow their own plants.

    Secondly, there isn't the hassle of shipping plants, only seeds are shipped.

    So yeah - by distributing the collection from one or three collections to all the interested growers in the US, we can also distribute the time, effort, and money needed to maintain the collection to all those growers. Would this be a viable idea?

    This is something that could be done by private growers and through private funding. We would still have to get sanctioned by a few organizations in order to get permission to collect some of the material. Secondly, this would have to be an organized effort, not a free for all. Most of us could not be involved in the beginning efforts, while some dozen or two people set up the organization and get it running. Once it is running, everyone interested could start growing plants and re-offering seed. How many strains are kept in cultivation would be entirely up to the willingness of growers to keep that many separate strains.

    just my 2 cents.

    -noah

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