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Thread: U.S. National Sarracenia Collection

  1. #49

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    Yes, I did say it would be a long hard road, but it is not a journey that is restricted to one traveller no matter how well informed, well intentioned, or motivated they may be. The beauty of our American society in general is that it is both free and diverse. Just as with the plants themselves, this diversity can insure that, as some systems fail, others with different characteristics can arise to replace it. Adopting a single strategy approach to any idea is not optimal whether it be in regards to plants, planning, or politics.

    I hope you continue to work to form a combined inventory. There is nothing that prohibits you from forming very good collections amongst yourselves, provided you adhere to laws and ethics. You might not have the ABG to house it or funding sources, but generosity has worked as well as anything so far for affording some measure of protection for these endangered species, and it is likely that this is the only way in which their range is currently expanding. Do not lose heart! Continue to act as the patriots that you surely are, and set these plants FREE amongst yourselves.
    "Grow More, Share More"

  2. #50

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    To begin with, Noah presented the idea pretty much as I gave it to Carl to begin with, with the ICPS running the seed bank program. As you can see, this is what it degenerated to. I have my faith in the people who love these plants, and not a body that looks for an out, or a watered down version of what I have proposed. Everyone I have heard from thinks it a good idea, and an idea whose time has come. It would effectively destroy the poacher whose prime objective is money. Without a profit, he doe not collect. These plants from all over would be at your disposal, common as cars on the highway. And yes, that includes appendix 1 plants. Tamlin and I have already discussed the possibility of having to do this ourselves, so shall we? My alata red tubes parents came from Desoto at White's Crossing, and I got them way back when , when the ICPS had a seed bank that wasn't afraid to list the plant and location. Oreophila exists in collections from now extinct stands, who has'em? Give'em up so we all can steward them. It was a simple plan, and as usual, they are making it hard. And not listening to the people at the same time. We are on our own as to making an easy thing viable. Get up, get going, we are the stewards, and we need to make a working plan ourselves, I think.
    45 yrs. growin\'
    Founder NASC

  3. #51

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    This is easily the best discussion I've seen on this forum yet. Talk about fired up...

    I'd like to take the chance to applaude bugweed for such a elegantly simple concept, and noah for giving us a working example that we can look at for inspiration, and Tamlin for just firing everyone up.

    I think that there have been many great points brought up in this thread:

    1) That the ICPS actually IS in aware of and in the process of writing and proposing a plan that will preserve the diversity of this threatened genus.

    2) Any organized effort to preserve Sarrs outside the accreditted scientific community will not recieve ANY formal recognition, legal exemptions, non-profit status, federal funding, or even really any respect.

    3) There are informal routes we can pursue if our goal is simply preserving the diversity of the genus that needn't complicated.

    4) There are people among us who are willing to pursue these routes.

    I think that it should be pointed out that we are afforded the opportunity take many different approaches to achieve the same goal, and the more we take the more likely one (or more) of them is to succeed.

    This is a digression, but...The reason that the scientific community is closed to outside participation is because the average laymen has neither the training in, nor the circumstances to ensure, scientific certainty. The scientific community is eternally battling what is referred to as "voodoo science." That is, people who are passing off bad science as verifiable. For examples think about people marketing perpetual motion machines, anit-gravity vehicles, and deionized water schemes. These are the really nutty ones, but think about how every scientific study is scrutinized and is forced to defend themselves against critics. The scientific community is forced to guard itself against this scrutiny by every means possible, which includes denying many well intended participants from starting splinter groups and projects when they aren't completely versed in the scientific method and supported by scientists. It's not really their fault that they have been forced to be so defensive when there are so many people gunning for them. It seems like anyone not designing a better bullet or bomber these days is forced to fight for every dollar they can get, and preserving scientific integrity is part of that their defence.

    So I propose that we can both support the ICPS in their efforts while pursuing a less formal project of our own. I think that most people here are more interested in preserving the genus than in getting credit for it. The point was made that there already exists a collection of Sarrs in private collections that represents every known specie and variety. We just don't know who has what, and we oftentimes cannot verify the authenticity of our varieties with scientific certainty. I say, "So what?" That all of these plants are protected and accounted for with reasonable certainty is good enough for me. This is, of coarse, backed by the knowledge that there are ALSO people working on catologing and preserving with scientific certainty everything that they can. Between the two I find a very happy medium.

    It is my opinion that we should move forward with a more informal seed sharing project. For the time being we should establish what all we want to preserve. We should caution against attempting to preserve every population of every specie and form. That would be far too redundant as well as lunacy to try to coordinate (I think).

    I think this thread is a good place to try to get a good idea of exactly what we want to accomplish and what we can expect to accomplish. I think that it is very possible to establish a national database and seed sharing plan. I don't think that it's necessary to collect anything from the wild; we already have everything in cultivation, we just need to find out who has it and is willing to share it.

    I'm really interested in this project, it's quite similar to something I was working on on my own before I was aware that it was a topic other people were interested in. Please email me privately if you want to talk to me directly about it, but I think everyone else would benefit from any comments anyone has on the subject.

    Jason (the monkey) Wills
    jawfccj@yahoo.com
    "Like most religions, reason has presented itself as the solution to the problems it has created."

  4. #52

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    I would also like to be a part of an informal group such as Jason suggested. Also, if we want to start getting a list together of the plants with location data attached, here's what I have.

    S. minor Long Co. GA
    S. leucophylla Walton Co. FL
    S. leucophylla (pink lip) Walton Co. FL
    S. flava var. ornata Walton Co. FL
    S. purpurea spp venosa var burkei Walton Co. FL

    And some seeds I was just sent by Brooks (one of them most generous people I know!)

    S. alata Stone County, MS
    S. leucophylla Avalon, FL, Santa Rosa County


    In a few months, when I can make sure these seedlings are well on their way to a good spring's growth, I will have extra of these varieties to send to a several 'stewards'.

    S. leucophylla (pink lip) Walton Co. FL
    S. flava var. ornata Walton Co. FL
    S. purpurea spp venosa var burkei Walton Co. FL


    It is my opinion that we let the ICPS handle the red tape and get an official project going. In the meantime, we small time growers should be getting as many of these location data plants around as possible in an informal way.

    SF

  5. #53
    Moderator Schmoderator Fluorescent fluorite, England PlantAKiss's Avatar
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    I know that Mr. Mazur brings up many good points. Like I said, I'm not unaware of the monumentality of the task and the need to have correct procedure, data and identification, etc. Nobody ever said this would be a cake walk.

    Noah has a good grasp of the idea. The original plan was to have a number of sites where the plants would be held, not just one. It would be about collecting plants/seeds from various locations and growers, holding them and propagating and distributing them as well. The collection would grow over time...a long time. But the longer we wait, the less plants there will be.

    The point is...that it needs to be done and it has start SOMEWHERE and SOON. Sure, there are LOTS of details to be worked out just to take the first baby steps. But aren't the baby steps better than standing in place? Don't you walk before you can run?

    I guess I am offended more by the attitude than the presentation of some very valid points. I think anyone interested in this project would be more than willing to listen to what experienced scientists have to say on the subject. That offers guidance and guidance is needed and appreciated! But don't quash the enthusiasm and interest people have in this! Don't let sanctions or non-sanctions stand in the way of doing what's right and needed.

    If people feel this is a worthwhile thing to do...then lets do what we can. Maybe it will fail. But maybe not. And maybe a few decades down the road, there will be plants still on this planet that might otherwise have evaporated into extinction.
    "Fox terriers are born with about four times as much original sin in them as other dogs." - Jerome K. Jerome

  6. #54

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    Well said, PAK! I think what we need is an education in meticulous notetaking, and how to go about keeping strains from certain locales "pure". We might get Brooks Garcia to make a pictorial in how seed heads are bagged to keep other pollens out. Learning the technique is a good way to ensure we keep the species whole, as it were. Another plan is to rotate specie pollination in order not to have flowers blooming at the same time, possibly crossing with something you did not want. A fresh pollen exchange might help to get other genetic markers from the same bog, different stand, to cross with another to insure your diversity. I think we should try perusing collections that have been well recorded, and start there. Most known bogs should be represented. If locale isn't known, enjoy the plant and grow it well, but don't get it into the mix. There is more I have been thinking about, but I think we need more input from all of you. Ideas, please. We don't want to shun the ICPS, but they have their program, and we the growers should have ours. We can take care of these plants and preserve them for a long time. If they disappear altogether, then we can only dream of remember when. I don't like that concept at all.
    45 yrs. growin\'
    Founder NASC

  7. #55

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    A member who will remain anonymous since I have not asked his permission to print this private email to me wrote:

    I do understand your postion, so please try to understand mine.

    I am not willing to give up on my dream because some buricratic fool comes in and makes a little speach about the ICPS. Going off of history, it takes the ICPS forever to make ANY kind of decision. This is time that we don't have.

    You know, I will stop being politcal for a minute and give you my true feelings. I don't care if this orginization is "nationally" known, or recognized by the ICPS. Thats not the point. The point is to save these plants for future generations. I willl NOT let one person that is against the idea because it wasn't part of his group kill my dream. I WILL NOT.

    This group shall proceed, with or without the ICPS. The ICPS has nothing to do with our goals. Our goal is to make these plants available to all that want them. I can't for a minute think of a reason they could stop us. If they don't want to help us, to #### with em.

    I am not doubting your fortitude, belive me I am not, but if you arn't willing to handle the job you have now, please hand it down. I am not willing to see this die. I think we can handle this quicker and better than the ICPS could ever. Do I care that they don't recognize us? No, does any other grower that grows FOR THE PLANTS? No, they don't care. At the end
    of the day, its about the plants, not polotics.

    I beg of you, head this orginization up for the time being. If you are not willing to do so, hand it down to someone else. DO NOT LET THIS DIE. You have a responsibility now, you love these plants just as much as I. The ball is in your hand now, the choice is yours.

    At the end of the day, its not about the friends you made or lost, or the alies and enemys you may have made, its all about the plants. At least thats how it is for me. Its about my daughter being able to grow up and see a Sarracenia leucophylla growing in her backyard in the way nature made
    it.

    Maybe you don't see the same things. And please, don't think I am questioning your convictions, because I know you are dedicated. I am just asking you to jump over the fence on this once. We need you on this side, the RIGHT side.

    **********************************************

    So what am I supposed to say to all this? There is an old listserve post with the question, "Who is William Dawnstar"
    One Listserve member reminded me my name means "rising ball of hot gas".

    Ok, let's begin this right. First, as President pro-tem I am making a motion to call for nominations for the office of President of the "Sarracenia FIRST National Democratic Collection" (name to be ratified). Will anyone second this motion?



    "Grow More, Share More"

  8. #56

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    Bout time, William. I will second the motion. There is no way I will accept the answer from the ICPS. We need an education comittee to teach each of us who needs it how to take records and good notes. Also, a digital picture class in properly bagging flower heads for pollination purposes. I have asked Noah to contact Mike King for record keeping rules and tips. Mike's a good hearted man, and will help us on that I am sure. I have asked Brooks for the pics on bagging flowers, so everybody keep watch! He may wait for spring so we all can see together. Also, we need to start checking local botanical gardens with good plant collectionswith locale info. I will talk to Judith Finn at the Berkley Botanical Garden at U.C. Berkley for help in that area myself. Anyone else? Speak up! We can all be heard on this Forum, so use it to your advantage. Get the word out, we are getting busy. Start the planning phases, and we will take all suggestions into consideration, and even vote on them. Talk it up, its time to get to work and put feet on this plan. Everything legal guys, no underhanded stuff, 10-4? We will not rip anything out of the ground if it is not legal. Anyone in Florida, you can still buy a permit to collect sarracenia through the state. Make use of that, don't go over board. 4 to 6 plants at best of one species. Seed caps are even better. I don't mind watching my babies grow.



    45 yrs. growin\'
    Founder NASC

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