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Any construction sites

  • #21
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Kirkscoastalcarnivores @ May 29 2005,12:05)]I'm not upset that you guys don't trust me, it's more that you are accusing me of trying to poach

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]This sounds like a wonderfull poaching expidition, please tell me this is not the case!
Kirk, I am certain your intentions are noble, and there is a great deal you can do to help in CP conservation, if you are careful about it.

I would say that the best thing you could do if you discover a CP site that appears to be endangered is to alert the forum of it.

If somebody with more field experience is able to determine whether the site IS truly in danger, and can get the owners' permission and make the expedition to salvage some plants, I expect they would let you know, so you can join them and assist in the rescue.

I am 35, and I would not dream of doing such a thing purely on my own.

Unless somebody more experienced advises otherwise, I would not recommend you approach the construction crew or owners.  If it is approached the wrong way the first time, they may be very disinclined to allow us to rescue plants in the future.  Just write down the address/location, take some pictures, and send the info on here.
 
  • #22
That is some very good advice Scott.
 
  • #23
Yes you never know what will set them off.  It's always a gamble.  As long as you are nice they are usually okay but if other people have asked they may be p***** off
 
  • #24
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Yes you never know what will set them off.  It's always a gamble.
Wow Tre, sounds as if you have some experience here. Yes, wives deprived of access to their husband's credit cards can get rather grumpy.

Oh, was that not what you were referring to? Seriously, I believe we should all leave initiation of contact regarding any site to people in positions of authority at the NASC.  Naturally, no one can stop anyone from initiating contact on their own however I would hope that one would not be tossing out any affiliation as a volunteer with the NASC as a form of "credentials" to better their odds of gaining access to a site.  The NASC, although not up and fully functional yet, has people who are well qualified to take appropriate action if contacted and provided with the opportunity to do so on behalf of the NASC.
 
  • #25
Sorry Laura that was not the context I was looking for. Most of my post got deleted by mistake. Ah well I was talking about construction site owners. Although I guess you read the subtext.
 
  • #26
Kirk's question has me thinking...

We really should try to set up a network of experienced volunteers who can act on information to determine whether plants are really threatened and work with the owners/developers to allow people to rescue the plants (and do so in a manner so that ONLY those plants threatened are taken).

This way, Kirk and others, would have a means to alert the right people, and know that appropriate action is taken. Somewhere along the line, the initial reporter should be brought into the loop, and, I hope, be allowed to assist in the actual rescue; s/he's not going to learn otherwise what the right way to do this is.
 
  • #27
Good News, 0zzy is the head of Conservancy for the NASC.  I think the Committee Chairs were somewhat sidetracked for a few weeks with the auction however your very suggestion has already been on the table and just such a network was already proposed which would include the original reporter of the site. Details forthcoming in the months to follow however I believe 0zzy is the member to contact regarding coordination of any "rescues".
 
  • #28
Laura I'm not exactly sure how many people actually remember what the NASC stands for. I know I have enough problems with all the other Actronimes (sp?). You know all those. Actually I think I have most down just those long latin names like Utricularia chiribiquetensis or Utric. quinquedentatai I don't even think I could pronounce those if some one told me a dozen times (feel free to spell those out in phenetics for me though).
 
  • #29
We (NASC) are working on setting up a network so that anybody can contact one of us and we will get the ball rolling. We have even discussed a plan that will allow a member of the NASC to have permissions and legal rights to rescue plants within hours or even minutes. Of course that will be for emergency situations only. Here is a combination of a plan I would like to set up and what has already been discussed.

Our first priority is to keep as many plants on the original sites as possible. Removal of plants will be a last resort. To do this we need people find as many sites as they can and manage those sites. We need property owners permission to do this. So we will have to work with the property owners not against them. I plan to get a contract drawn up that will allow the person on the property, and just make sure that they plants stays healthy and monitor any threats. In this contract it will clearly state that the land owner is in control at all times, the land owner can at any time ask us to leave. That way the land owner never feels pressured. I think we can build relation ships with the owners and then gain their trust. If we do this we will in the end have more freedom to do as we please on their property.
If we at any time find a threat to some plants on the property, we try to find a solution. As an example, I'll use a situation of a piece of land that I have found some D.brevifolia. It's a vegetable and fruit farm. There is an irrigation pond and a dirt road runs all the way around it. Around one corner is where the D.brevifolia grows. They grow from the pond to the edge of the road. A lot of them have been ran over because of trucks and equipment driving through the area. In this case I would go to the owner and ask if we could build a fence to protect them at our expense. If the answer is no, I would then ask if we can move the plants. D.brevifolia are almost impossible to relocate, it's just an example.
If a member runs across a site with bulldozers on site, and there is no other options but to remove the plants, we will have a form already printed out and sent with the membership package. There will be a list of phone numbers of board members on the form. The NASC member will first call one of the board members and discuss the situation. If it is decided that the plants should be removed the member will try to get the person in charge of the construction to sign the form giving us permission to collect. If possible the form will be faxed to the board member, the board member will sign, and fax it back. If there are no fax machines nearby, the board member can give oral permission to collect and the sign the form later.
If it is not an emergency situation but the site will be developed, we are thinking that we will get two board members to agree to collect and then sign it.

These rules are not set in stone yet. They are just ideas for now. I welcome any ideas that anybody else has. If you have an idea either post it here or pm me.



[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Wow Tre, sounds as if you have some experience here. Yes, wives deprived of access to their husband's credit cards can get rather grumpy.

Yeah that may make them grumpy, but they are grumpy any way, and it's better that they are just grumpy, then grumpy and broke.
 
  • #30
Ozzy shouldn't you have posted that in the NASC forum thingy for consideration by everyone. Since I know not everyone is reading this thread.
 
  • #31
North American Sarracenia Conservancy = NASC. NASC would be the acronym for this combination of words.

I realize it has been a long time Tre however... the NASC is a fledgling and is dependent upon the collective gifts of time, talent, and resources of many members to get up and going. Please understand it is being fueled exclusively by volunteers. Volunteers are a priceless commodity in that without them, there would be no NASC. Volunteers are human beings though. They're a package deal and they come complete with all the responsibilities that being a member of the human race entails so the going can slow down in spots if members are pulled in too many directions.  Not much more I have to offer but please be patient as things will magically come together one day.  And someday that acronym will hopefully be known in all environmental and conservation circles. You'll see.

edited to add that I just realized two other posts came in since I read Tre's regarding what NASC stood for. Oops. Seems as if this thread now feels out of context.
 
  • #32
Ahh the C. is consevancy I thought so. Oh don't worry about the time Laura. It will probibly be a few years before I can significantly contribute as I have made at least 1 officer aware of. I don't mean to be critical or anything, this is very helpful and sueful that you are doing this. Perhaps you can make the Tampa Bay Area CP society members aware of this and explain how these CPs are saved. I think they will be shocked. Of course I am one of several people with a grudge against those.... so I leave all the word spreading up to you. If or rather when you make a lobby group for congress,as all successful enviromental groups must have, I would be happy to contribute to that or give advice, etc. I would suggest you look at the Nature Conservancy's set up because if you will want ot do this right all these autions and so on will contribute liquid funds that will be used to purchise and restore Cp habitat. If not you will have a wonderful saving expedition on your hands and not much else. In fact I do fear that the NASC will become what it is aimed to destroy. I fear this will become a way to take genetically distinct plants from the wild even parks and send them into cultivation. I would like to be realistic. This conservancy can be done just not without hard work (as you know). Websites, newsletters all that will have to be sent out or produced inorder to show how serious this organisation is. Starting it from a forum and any attempts to run it jsut htrough this forum will not succeed in what you want it to succeed at. I would advise you to spread the word now. I know Barry supports this and so I'm sure he could get your website a directlink off of the ICPS website. I read Ozzy's post carefully and I want to warn you now. Sending out those faxed things may be wonderful and happy and good but there will be people who will want to get plants who will use the name of this organisation to poach. I am patient and I will wait but I want to warn you to be careful and pick people wisely. You will have to start off with a loyal base of savers people who will not take advantage of the organisation. "Bad" people will get into the membership and possibly the committee. Which in itself I do not nessicarily think is a good thing. And this organisation if truely that serious will need to prepare itself to be handed over so to speak to the younger generation when their time comes. When all the current commitee is 85 or whatever I shouldn't expect it to still be incharge because face it not that many old people are traveling around much less fit to do rigorous hikes through bogs. Maintaining the bogs will be more problems. I know that less then 7 houses away from me S. minor grows. Our deveoplement's commitee would never let me or anyone else manage these area because they have "perfectly able" lawnmen who do so. Which consists of throwing more tinder in the woods to shade the S. minor.

When I am able to help I will.
 
  • #33
Education is important in properly stewarding the land with the owners... many people will not do periodic controlled burns, but this is what is required to preserve the site.

Even the Nature Conservancy and many state/federal parks will not do it.
 
  • #34
Many areas that I have found plants cannot do controlled burns. You need a cartain distance for residences and other buildings as well as making sure it will not cloud the road. + if there is a drought. So in fact many places probibly are not allowed to do it.
 
  • #35
Yeah, I really should put this in the NASC forum but I have been busy moving, and I had planned to get settled in before I get anything officially wrote up. I just typed that out without any thought at all. Maybe I'll paste it there if I get time.
 
  • #36
Hi Tre, I am only an underling with the NASC. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me but I am not in a position to make any decisions regarding the direction of this organization. I do whole heartedly support those is positions of authority to the best of my ability and I would suggest that we all follow suit. You suggested the following, “Ozzy shouldn't you have posted that in the NASC forum thingy for consideration by everyone”.  It’s great for the Committee Chairs to be able to get input from others so perhaps this thread might get more “reads” if it is moved, however, decisions will need to be made by Board members such as Rose, 0zzy, PAK, and Bugweed. That’s just sort of the way Boards function best.

Hi SarraceniaScott, I am by no means an expert on controlled burns however I have participated in them before under the guidance of those considerably more experienced than I.  There do exist many situations in which a controlled burn is not in the best interests of the plants one might be trying to preserve. There are many factors that determine this. We can't paint with such a broad stroke as to state emphatically that "many people will not do periodic controlled burns, but this is what is required to preserve the site".  Other species of plants may be present and established at a site that may prohibit a controlled burn, narrow leaf cattails as well as phragmites come to mind.  Existing biomass can become a major concern.  We have several sites in my area that have been burning for over a year. The fires can't be put out. What began as a controlled burn ignited by some well intentioned individual has ended up a smoldering nightmare that could conceivably burn for many years to come all because someone took a cavalier approach to site management.  Additionally, in some counties controlled burns are prohibited. Does the NASC necessarily want people out there managing sites by "routinely" conducting controlled burns regardless of the hydrology or lack there of or regardless of the type of biomass present but not taken into consideration? There are many more variables in need of being factored in to determine whether a controlled burn is feasible or not. I certainly am not qualified to make that determination. Few are.  There are other activities in which one can participate at a site to insure perpetuation of a species. It doesn’t always have to be a controlled burn and could simply be the mechanical removal of introduced species encroaching and degrading Sarracenis habitat.  Exotic species can and often do outcompete native species and do need to be controlled, managed, and eradicated. Controlled burns are just one of many ways to control invasive species that threaten native plants.

Speaking of fires... right now as I type, 500 acres of the Illinois State Beach Park are consumed in flames thanks to some moron. I volunteer at this park and I am listening to it on the radio. They have detained the man who was allegedly caught starting the fires. Our park was home to countless species of threatened and endangered species.  I am a monitor for an endangered orchid over there. Our park was only 700 acres. I am aghast.  There are 18 fire departments allegedly on site trying to put it out before it consumes even more land. Ash is falling from the sky as if there is a volcanic eruption of some sort. How incredibly depressing.
 
  • #37
Treaqum, I read your post on the last page and then made the post above without reading all the posts on this page.
I agree with most of what you said. We can't let the NASC become a poaching organization, and we can't let ourselves get a poaching reputation. Many of your thoughts have already been considered by board members but maybe they haven't been addresses publicly. Everything that I posted was just me running my mouth without much thought at all. I need to put a lot of thought into my ideas before they are made policy. What I said was mostly just ideas that I have. Other things are things that me and Rose have discussed. We need to have a lawyer look at the forms that we draw up before they are approved by the board. We are just getting on our feet and we need to learn to walk before we start running. Any plant that is collected in the name of the NASC, will have to be done 100% legally, and EVERY procedure we set into place be followed. Some of the things I want to made into procedure is:
1. All plant material collected goes to the NASC.
2. At least two board member review and agree that the plants should be collected. If we have enough time I would recommend that all collections be put before the board for vote before any collection is made. In some emergency situation that may not be possible. But before any plant is collected at least one board member must agree, then the decision will be reviewed by the board to make sure that the right decision was made. The board member that approved the collection will be responsible to the board for the decision.

Remember these are just my, not so thought out, opinions. None of what I have said has been reviewed by the board.
I can assure you that we have sound board members, and none of our board members are in this for personal gain. Please PM me or post any concerns that you have here so that we can get it all out in the open, and address them. That will make the NASC a more sound organization in the end.
 
  • #38
Will do. I jsut wanted my thoughts to be known. I knew Bugweed and Copper were involved but I did not know how big (or rather small) the board was. I am glad the board is not a seperate entity but actually the officers and is small and filled with dedicated people who will do anything to get this thing off the ground. And again I am here to do as you ask of me probibly not for 6 years unforntalyy as Rose and Bugweed know.

Oh and SS controlled burns also cannot be done on area that have not been burned to recently. I know that if some idiot threw a cigarette into the woods near my house and they got lit on fire it would not be controlled. Controlled means the amount of tinder will let a quike burn go through that will not kill everything. It will allow the hardy-er stuff to survive like our hungary friends. Too much tinder is in that forest. Everything would be burned in such a hot fire I bet only one or two at most trees would survive. Not to mention the houses going up in flames.
 
  • #39
is it practical to burn the plants in culture?
 
  • #40
The burnings are primarily to knock down invasive species that grow much quicker, and can over grow their cp counterparts. Byblis to my knowledge would be the only plant requiring fire.
 
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