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Thread: Heliamphora chimantensis, etc . . .

  1. #9
    Carnivorous plant enthusiast vraev's Avatar
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    spectacular plants guys!! wow!!!

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    Av8tor1's Avatar
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    You and I have discussed this before over at cpuk. IMHO mine doesn't really fit the official description written by Wistuba.
    Even though I personally got my plant from Wistuba and he confirmed that similar cpuk plant as H. chimantensis

    Otherwise, I would have identified it as H. chimantensis x pulchella

    I'll say it again, the Heli waters are muddy at best...
    Av

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    BigBella's Avatar
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    You got that right.

    I had one plant that had been misidentified as H. neblinae by a number of people and just recently saw one at D'Amato's place (N. neblinae?) which could easily have been a toss-up between the two . . .
    “Sì perché l'autorità dell'opinione di mille nelle scienze non val per una scintilla di ragione di un solo . . ."

    -- Galileo "Biff" Galilei

  4. #12
    Av8tor1's Avatar
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    One day I hope the ICPS will sanction an official taxonomy key.... the only two I know of are now very outdated and incomplete.

    Does the one in the first images have the long slit?

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    Av8tor1's Avatar
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    Here's what gets me...

    Pitchers infundibulate in the lower half, slightly ventricose in the middle and cylindrical to slightly infundibulate in the upper third (see Figure 1); pitchers 20 to 35 cm long, 3.5-5 cm wide in the upper part; upper part of the pitchers completely glabrous on the inner side; pitchers entirely green with deep red lids. Lid 1-2 cm wide and 2-2.5 cm long, spoon-shaped, upright, ending with a sharp tip; the two lobes of the lid compressed from the sides near the tip, often touching each other at the front, forming a quasi-helmet; lobes are expanded in the lower part of the lid and narrowed sharply near the base; the inner side of the lid with prominent irregularly shaped patches of glands, up to 5 mm across. Inflorescence 60 to 65 cm long, 3-5 flowers, peduncle slightly pubescent, pedicels 5-13 cm long. The lowest peduncle is the longest and bears a bract that frequently is transformed into a rudimentary pitcher. Tepals lanceolate, 4.5-5.5 cm long, 1.2-1.7 cm wide, white to whitish-pink; ca. 20 stamens in 1 series, filaments 6 mm long, anthers oblong lanceolate, 5 mm long, 1 mm wide; ovary 3 celled, pubescent, style glabrous. Seed approximately 2 mm long, compressed, ovate, irregularly winged.......

    We observed numerous hybrids between Heliamphora chimantensis and the Heliamphora minor on Chimanta. These hybrids can be easily distinguished from pure Heliamphora chimantensis by the shorter pitchers, the red veins and the coarse bristles inside the pitchers. Some of the hybrids’ pitchers showed deep red coloration, similar to the form of H. minor growing on Chimanta. The helmet shaped lids of these show a strong influence of Heliamphora minor. Apparently the hybrids are much more vigorous than either of the parent plants; we found patches of single clones measuring more than 5 meters across


    Now with this in mind, look at my H. chimantensis again:


    I just dont know.... the experts say its a chimantensis, but it sure doesnt match the original description IMHO
    mud, mud, mud.... ugh

  6. #14
    BigBella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Av8tor1 View Post
    You and I have discussed this before over at cpuk. IMHO mine doesn't really fit the official description written by Wistuba.
    Even though I personally got my plant from Wistuba and he confirmed that similar cpuk plant as H. chimantensis

    Otherwise, I would have identified it as H. chimantensis x pulchella

    I'll say it again, the Heli waters are muddy at best...
    Av
    Looking through McPherson's Pitcher Plants of the Americas, Thomas Carow's Karnivoren, images from Wistuba, old Venezuelan slides of mine from the late eighties, and other online sources leads me to believe that there is far more variety to the appearance of H. chimantensis than is generally thought. Figure 144 in Pitcher Plants shows a photo of H. chimantensis x pulchella, though that image far more closely resembles the features of H. pulchella (especially the nectar spoon) than your H. chimantensis.

    To add further confusion, the amount of light and water greatly affects the appearance -- size and shape -- of Helamphora, both in cultivation and the wild . . .


    Heliamphora chimantensis -- December 2009
    “Sì perché l'autorità dell'opinione di mille nelle scienze non val per una scintilla di ragione di un solo . . ."

    -- Galileo "Biff" Galilei

  7. #15
    Av8tor1's Avatar
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    Agreed.... most features are highly environmental dependent. That leaves us with the non-environmental characteristics such as drain, hair, flower etc.
    I don't remember the specifics about your H. neblinae discussion on cpuk, but didn't the other person's example have the wrong pitcher drain and hair features? Yet it was "officially" accepted to be correct.
    My H. chimantensis is another example of a similar situation..
    If we cant even go by these characteristics then what is the hobbyist to do?
    I guess mine is a true chimantensis variant, it certainly should be.... it came from the same man who wrote the official description

    but IMHO it sure doesn't match it... so the only alternative remaining is the official description requires updating

    So then my question becomes, what makes a chimantensis a chimantensis

    ugh...

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