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A Cephalotus Collection fit for a King! [warning: picture heavy]

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  • #21
I think you guys need to just let listserv be. It's his money. Besides, if you are "99.999999%" it is not Eden Black, why the fuss? It's his money, someone sold it to him, end of story. Sometimes it seems this whole business of telling novice growers that Cephs are difficult to cultivate is some sort of huge conspiracy. There is nothing to growing them... in fact, I just water mine and leave it alone.

What he decides to do with it is his business... not the forums.

Listserv, if you have any questions shoot me a PM.
 
  • #22
it is the forums business if this plant gets leaked out as an Eden Black and its not, people will end up spending or trading away things that they shouldnt have to for more than a typical plant.
 
  • #23
it is the forums business if this plant gets leaked out as an Eden Black and its not, people will end up spending or trading away things that they shouldnt have to for more than a typical plant.

Agreed, but it doesn't seem that is the case. I would give him the benefit of the doubt. What red flags have presented themselves? There is nothing malicious about the posts.
 
  • #24
Funny how this reminds me of a "Timmy" situation!
It is hard to even take this sort of thing seriously. :glare:

In view of recent, related events, this doesn't merit a legitimate response;
and apparently nor does providing advice as requested on previous posts. There seems to be no point in it any longer.

This situation is only one of many examples of how things have really deteriorated here lately.
:lac:
It is sad really, as this was once a very nice place to share and associate with other experienced and knowledgeable growers. At least that used to be part of the cross-section of active members here. The type of members who I think added a lot to this place.

Maybe it is just me, but lately this feels more like the kids table at Thanksgiving :thumbdown:,
than it does a forum of both new, and experienced, dedicated growers.

It is things like this that have happened lately, that make me think my opinions, advice and knowledge are no longer needed here (if they ever were). I certainly appreciated that of others, and valued their input in time past. But what I see going on here, well, I just don't understand it. Nor is it what I came here for.


PS: SirK, I think you are wasting your understanding on those who either don't understand at all, or don't care.

Addition: You can tell some "noobies" by their views and understanding, which obviously come from a lack of experience. While some will listen to the reasoning of more experienced growers (to their own benefit) others will not. Back when I was new to growing, "noobies" automatically respected those who had been growing for a long time. We could see and value their advice and wisdom, and while on occasion there would be a difference of opinion, no one was arrogant or rude toward others. Funny as I remember, most of the differences of opinion, in time usually proved what the experienced grower was saying all along.
But there are always new ways and new methods, which is something that even the good experienced "old timers" realized, and it always amazed me that for as much as they knew, they were also always open to learning more and involved in experimenting to try something different.
The problems here in this faceless forum, is that for new growers it is near impossible to know who has real wisdom and experience, and who is just repeating others advice or talking as if they themselves have the knowledge and experience they claim to. Those of us with experience will often be able to judge, merely by listening to what someone says! [And if I ever acquired one of these Cephs, I would NOT be able to call it by its "name", as I know I couldn't trust it as being true. Nor would I trade it as such, however I would trade it including its history, which would be appropriate under the circumstances. A new grower who comes out immediately with an unheard of variety *Red Hummer* cannot be just given the "benefit of the doubt", nor in view of the circumstances, could his plants now be assumed to be what they are claimed to be. An experienced grower would never be that irresponsible! At least not any growers who I have learned from or have earned my trust.]
(And growing plants for a year or two will not usually give someone a well rounded knowledge of how to do all the basics, but then you can't really measure knowledge and experience by how long someone has been growing plants. I know people who have grown for 5 years, but still never transplanted a plant nor had much experience starting seeds or dividing plants.) Wisdom doesn't always come with age and experience.

As I keep telling people here, everyone has an opinion! Even people who don't know what they are talking about!

(This all reminds me of the humorous statement I once heard, and I bring it up in jest: Those of you who think you know everything, are annoying those who do!) Good luck all, you are going to need it!

If nothing else, I am amazed and saddened at the attitude some noobies have here. They must not have grown up receiving much respect (or perhaps received way, way too much that was undeserved), as they certainly don't show any to others. Not something any of us would dare to ever do years ago. It does say a lot about a person, however! And again, another example of what I was mentioning earlier.
 
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  • #25
It's his money, someone sold it to him, end of story.
I agree. He killed a ceph...so what? Lots of people say they kill their first one. I haven't seen him say he plans to trade it or sell it either. Its amazing how many negative comments are in this thread. I don't see the problem with helping the guy. He killed his first ceph...now he wants to try again. I plan on buying a few cephs just in case I kill one.

If he wanted it and paid for it what diff does it make? his cephs are beautiful imo.
 
  • #26
LoL, it seems like people on here have caught the jealousy bug. I'm not going to mention any names, lol. It might surprise everyone to know that I purchased all of these plants at exactly the same time. These aren't "new additions" in case anyone is wondering.

No, my "dying" ceph is doing just fine. See here for updated pics: http://terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125274&page=3 It's coming back pretty strongly, and thanks to the wonderful advice that I received here (including SirKristoff :-O), it's recovering, and you can already see the new green growth coming out from each of the crowns. I thank everyone in the community that has given me advice on this rather troubling issue.

Yes, I own a real Eden Black. I've been getting flooded with PMs about who my source is-- and I'm not going to talk!

Anyway, enjoy the photos, and I will most definitely keep everyone updated.
 
  • #27
For one, a 15 watt aquarium tube will not grow all those plants. They will surely perish if that's all the light you're giving...especially since you're not reflecting it.

I hope you have adjusted this.
 
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  • #28
I agree. He killed a ceph...so what? Lots of people say they kill their first one. I haven't seen him say he plans to trade it or sell it either. Its amazing how many negative comments are in this thread. I don't see the problem with helping the guy. He killed his first ceph...now he wants to try again. I plan on buying a few cephs just in case I kill one.

If he wanted it and paid for it what diff does it make? his cephs are beautiful imo.

you need to understand that it wasnt just a ceph....from what he said, it was quite an old ceph, at least 12 years old. the amount of care and attention that plant received must have been amazing. at least amongst plant growers, there is some sentimental value amongst friends who receive plants from others who may have passed on. it is quite a shame if such a plant died due to neglect or poor care. this isnt some easily accessible plant that you can find at lowes. if this we were talking about a capensis there wouldnt such a fuss.

i dont even think that there would be even a fuss if he bought more typical cephs. however, he's acquired some very VERY hard ceph cultivars to acquire + some potential valuable cultivars but yet hasnt demonstrated that he's ready to handle such plants. such a haphazard approach most likely may lead to the death of these plants, which would be a sad turn of events for EVERYBODY in the CP community because that means the opportunity for that plant to grow and be shared with others is lost, or would take an even longer time to acquire.

i personally, am more than willing to help listserv out with his ceph endeavors---if we can ensure that his plants survive, we can increase our chances of having these beautiful plants in circulation amongst the community.
 
  • #29
you need to understand that it wasnt just a ceph....from what he said, it was quite an old ceph, at least 12 years old. the amount of care and attention that plant received must have been amazing. at least amongst plant growers, there is some sentimental value amongst friends who receive plants from others who may have passed on. it is quite a shame if such a plant died due to neglect or poor care. this isnt some easily accessible plant that you can find at lowes. if this we were talking about a capensis there wouldnt such a fuss.

i dont even think that there would be even a fuss if he bought more typical cephs. however, he's acquired some very VERY hard ceph cultivars to acquire + some potential valuable cultivars but yet hasnt demonstrated that he's ready to handle such plants. such a haphazard approach most likely may lead to the death of these plants, which would be a sad turn of events for EVERYBODY in the CP community because that means the opportunity for that plant to grow and be shared with others is lost, or would take an even longer time to acquire.

i personally, am more than willing to help listserv out with his ceph endeavors---if we can ensure that his plants survive, we can increase our chances of having these beautiful plants in circulation amongst the community.

I see what you're saying but its all about what you want. Every plant i've wanted...I bought it and so far every single one is still alive and doing good. LS doesn't look like he just doesn't care about his cephs. He seems very proud of them and actually started a whole thread to help save one. You can't tell someone what plants to like, not implying you are.

Almost 3 months into collecting CPs and mainly all I want is cephs. I plan on buying a Hummers Giant just as soon as I can find one. Newbie with a rare plant???. If it lives i'll share it . if not i'll start a "I Killed My Hummers Giant" thread and get scolded:p.
 
  • #30
If you have been following/commenting in List's threads/posts you would understand the reason people here are concerned about the real possiblity of mis-Id'd or dieing plants.

Step back and think about it, some unknown new person comes to the forums out of the blue talking about making money on Ceph's and he already has an Eden and 2 new unheard of clones??? Really??? Would you like to buy a bridge too? The Eden is easy enough to verify, people are taking care of that and in a week or so we will have a better answer. The other 2 the Golden and Red Hummer's well yea...anyone can make up a clone and name it without any real differences in the plants. I have a Ceph now that was divided off a typical that is golden in color, its just that plants lighting. Its not a varient.

My concern is that List will as most have that visit these forums get the advice he needs and his plants will start growing and dividing. Then they will get sold/traded away named incorrectly, his is a very bad thing for the hobby. If we, as a CP community, can "help" him get his plants named correctly that would be great and is my goal in posting. On the other side of things, if he really does have 2 clones we should help him identify these so they can become "know" clones and thus help reproduce those clones to help prevent loss. Also, if we believe he has incorrectly labeled plants we need to address this in every thread so we don't spread mis-information that is potentally harmful to the hobby as a whole. We did the same thing in the Utric. quelchii/tricolor mess, stopping the spread of a mis-Id'd plant is very important.
 
  • #31
Couldn't agree more RSS. I simply jumped in due to the tone several were using in "Helping" List out. List seems to be really passionate about growing Cephs, but some were treating him as if he was intentionally trying to make a big, beautiful mess out of the naming conventions.

And honestly... I'll never understand why people think a Ceph is so hard to care for. A very generous grower in my somewhat newbie days sent me a Hummers Giant. I have done NOTHING special for this plant... I have grown it exactly as I do my mexican pings and it is thriving and has filled up the 5 inch pot it came in and now has more growth points than I know what to do with. I think there is an allure that has been created in part because people give the impression a Ceph is the "big time" and is difficult to grow. I find it the opposite ???

If you have been following/commenting in List's threads/posts you would understand the reason people here are concerned about the real possiblity of mis-Id'd or dieing plants.

Step back and think about it, some unknown new person comes to the forums out of the blue talking about making money on Ceph's and he already has an Eden and 2 new unheard of clones??? Really??? Would you like to buy a bridge too? The Eden is easy enough to verify, people are taking care of that and in a week or so we will have a better answer. The other 2 the Golden and Red Hummer's well yea...anyone can make up a clone and name it without any real differences in the plants. I have a Ceph now that was divided off a typical that is golden in color, its just that plants lighting. Its not a varient.

My concern is that List will as most have that visit these forums get the advice he needs and his plants will start growing and dividing. Then they will get sold/traded away named incorrectly, his is a very bad thing for the hobby. If we, as a CP community, can "help" him get his plants named correctly that would be great and is my goal in posting. On the other side of things, if he really does have 2 clones we should help him identify these so they can become "know" clones and thus help reproduce those clones to help prevent loss. Also, if we believe he has incorrectly labeled plants we need to address this in every thread so we don't spread mis-information that is potentally harmful to the hobby as a whole. We did the same thing in the Utric. quelchii/tricolor mess, stopping the spread of a mis-Id'd plant is very important.
 
  • #32
Got my direct answer from the man himself this morning, i guess this proves it right here.
Listserv, hate to bust your pair, but you got scammed man


Hi Kris
I have not sent any overseas to date. Only about 20 people have received the plant direct from me, if you know who the person is he claims to have received it from (with phytosanitary?) I can confirm whether or not they got a plant from me, I have a database. If they won't confirm the source then we can't confirm whether it is likely or not.

I have been sending out plants for a few years now so we are getting to the stage where there may be some small plants available from other growers. Of course, with such a rare plant, to be sure of the parentage you would have to know the lineage, ie who got it from who...

A grower in Cornwall, England (Julie Jones) claims to have sent a plant to a grower in Malaysia (illegally) from an eBay sale earlier this year. Julie has been banned from both CPUK forums for illegal trading, so we are not sure if she is to be trusted as several growers have reported suspicions of trading fraud regarding swaps with her...

Have you got a link to the thread?
best wishes
Stephen
 
  • #33
Interseting,

So although it is still possible List has an Edens Black, it is HIGHLY unlikely.

Nice work Sir Kristoff.


Got my direct answer from the man himself this morning, i guess this proves it right here.
Listserv, hate to bust your pair, but you got scammed man


Hi Kris
I have not sent any overseas to date. Only about 20 people have received the plant direct from me, if you know who the person is he claims to have received it from (with phytosanitary?) I can confirm whether or not they got a plant from me, I have a database. If they won't confirm the source then we can't confirm whether it is likely or not.

I have been sending out plants for a few years now so we are getting to the stage where there may be some small plants available from other growers. Of course, with such a rare plant, to be sure of the parentage you would have to know the lineage, ie who got it from who...

A grower in Cornwall, England (Julie Jones) claims to have sent a plant to a grower in Malaysia (illegally) from an eBay sale earlier this year. Julie has been banned from both CPUK forums for illegal trading, so we are not sure if she is to be trusted as several growers have reported suspicions of trading fraud regarding swaps with her...

Have you got a link to the thread?
best wishes
Stephen
 
  • #34
That's a nice mix you got there, they look awesome sharing the same pot, i think they should be separated depending on the species, but i guess that's your little cephalotus mini bog!!!, the pics look great, good luck with them, they look great!
 
  • #35
My two bits.. cuz well doesn't everyone have their own two bits?

I could care less what he does with his money and what he buys for his collection.

I do however care greatly about mislabelled/ID'd plants etc.. There are way too many of these plants floating around in all genera.

I am puzzled though as to why the label says black maroon Cephalotus but yet it is claimed to be 'Eden Black'. The label doesn't say that so that makes me wonder if this is a case where the grower had a nice dark clone and was sold as a dark clone but the buyer then thinks they can call it by something else because it looks similar. The whole notion that you can call a plant by a clone name simply because it fits the description has irked me from the beginning. I hate hate hate that concept and in my opinion adds to the bogus junk out there.

Anyway.. good luck with your plants, but please be careful about named clones and distributing material as such unless you can verify personally they are correctly identified. It is not good enough to say so and so knows so and so and they said blah. In the case of 'Eden Black' it would be very easy to find out the details of this plant and your selling source by emailing the originator directly.

Tony
 
  • #36
As a grower, I'm sure that Stephen Morley has had his contributions to the hobby and such, but honestly, I couldn't give a sundew's dew-speck about his personal stamp of approval. My source has been friends with Morley for the past 15 years and obtained his stock plants from him, and that's all that matters to me. I'm now in possession of one of said stock plants. I see a thinly-veiled attempt by some posters on this site to use this attack to try to get me to divulge the name of my source, but I see through everything-- and I'm not going to talk.

Just to give people a little bit of background about Eden Black: it's been around for years, if not decades. Morley's plants have been in circulation longer than I've been alive (that doesn't say much), and that's never been any news, nor anything worthy of note in and of itself. The reason it's piqued people's interests in the last couple of years (about 5 years ago) is that Morley himself recently OFFICIALLY registered the plants as "Eden Black" to the ICPS cultivar list (which I suspect was some kind of plan for his own financial benefit). The plants themselves are out there if you know who to get them from-- and that, I do.

I will be taking more photos of an infinitely rarer cultivar of Cephalotus Follicularis later today. This new, and previously unknown strain of Cephalotus will be known as "Golden Clumper" in accordance to my source. To the morons that are putting words into my mouth, I never claimed for it to be a separate species. However, it is, in fact, a previously unknown cultivar known to anyone in the world.

If you carefully inspect the pattern of the branching of the pitchers, you will see that they actually shoot out in little tripods, not single strands of pitchers. This gives it an extremely vigorous clumping pattern. The Golden color of the plant is actually quite different from normal typicals as well. You will see that the color tone is MUCH lighter than normal Cephalotus clones to the point of being a yellow color.

 
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  • #37
Stephen's communication just shows that the plant in question did not come directly from Stephen.

It's still possible, though unlikely, that divisions have made it overseas by second or third generations growers. If one of these growers has managed to propagate via tissue culture then no phytosanitary certificates are needed for most countries if the plant is still in the flask when imported.

Without the provenance of the plants origin however claims to the authenticity will always be suspect.

The cultivar registration description took pains to list the exact color shade match to the Royal Horticultural Society's colour chart. Of course since color is dependent on growing and lighting conditions then this would be a more reliable method to confirm that it is indeed the cultivar rather than exclude.
 
  • #38
I am puzzled though as to why the label says black maroon Cephalotus but yet it is claimed to be 'Eden Black'.

Every grower will have their own conventions of labeling plants in their personal collection, as I'm sure everyone here is aware. Those are actually my own personal labels, and not those of the previous owner. You can't see them from this angle, but I have stickers on the pots themselves with models of Italian cars-- to give my collection a more personal touch and to be more easily recognizable by myself. These are, after all, my specimens of the highest grade.
 
  • #39
Funny how this reminds me of a "Timmy" situation!
It is hard to even take this sort of thing seriously. :glare:

In view of recent, related events, this doesn't merit a legitimate response;
and apparently nor does providing advice as requested on previous posts. There seems to be no point in it any longer.

This situation is only one of many examples of how things have really deteriorated here lately.
:lac:
I disagree. Since before I came here, there is a natural ebb & flow on the forum as people arrive, others depart & some just fade away as their 'real life' issues surface & demand attention. While this particular situation may be unique, one person or one situation doesn't make or break a forum. The forum is a collection of contributors. With only a few exceptions, the forums are self-policing with the mods periodically stepping in to shove someone (or some situation) back in line.

It is sad really, as this was once a very nice place to share and associate with other experienced and knowledgeable growers. At least that used to be part of the cross-section of active members here. The type of members who I think added a lot to this place.
It still is a nice place "with other experienced and knowledgeable growers".

Maybe it is just me, but lately this feels more like the kids table at Thanksgiving :thumbdown:, than it does a forum of both new, and experienced, dedicated growers.
That is all part of the ebb & flow of an internet forum - a new kid buys a VFT, kills it, comes on asking for help (rarely having read any book, Barry's faq, or searched past posts). Two to three weeks later, the same kid is now an 'expert' handing out advice in new threads. Personally, it didn't take me long after arriving to realize that all responses are not created equal ... :0o:

It is things like this that have happened lately, that make me think my opinions, advice and knowledge are no longer needed here (if they ever were). I certainly appreciated that of others, and valued their input in time past. But what I see going on here, well, I just don't understand it. Nor is it what I came here for.
From what I've seen, your advice is still valued nor should the value of this advice be assessed based on one member's acceptance of it ...

Listserv.org has rejected more good advice (both public & private) than either of us probably realize (but that is his right & his prerogative). He obviously places a much higher value on information from the seller of these plants than he does from those on the forum (who have no vested, self-interest). Over time, this may change (or it may not). ???
 
  • #40
So you bought an 'Eden Black' removed the label which supposedly identified it as such and labelled it as something else? Now I am really confused..

Just to give people a little bit of background about Eden Black: it's been around for years, if not decades. Morley's plants have been in circulation longer than I've been alive (that doesn't say much), and that's never been any news, nor anything worthy of note in and of itself. The reason it's piqued people's interests of the last couple of years (about 5 years ago) is that Morley himself recently OFFICIALLY registered the plants as "Eden Black" to the ICPS cultivar list (which I suspect was some kind of plan for his own financial benefit). The plants themselves are out there if you know who to get them from-- and that, I do.

Hmm hate to disagree.. oh wait no I don't, because if you are going to come in here claiming you know all the facts, then you better be sure you have the facts correct!

By Stephens words himself, 'Eden Black' was grown from seed. And as of January 2008 it had only been distributed to 3 other European growers.
http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19634&hl=eden&st=20
March 2007 Post #26 by Stephen "I grew it from seed"

http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=25165&hl=eden
Jan. 2008 Post #1 by Stephen "I have been concerned recently over a potential fake 'Eden Black' incident.
A European grower has told me that he was sold a small 'Eden Black' plant by a UK grower. As the originator of this clone, and with the knowledge that it is only been distributed to 3 UK growers, none of whom have sold on their plants or any parts of their plants it seems to me that something fishy is afoot!"

I am glad you like CP's and Cephs. Enjoy them! but please.. cut the crap.
 
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