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Thread: So Ceph Stratification Is Over...

  1. #17
    fredg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plant Planter View Post
    I wouldn't say amusing, but it's interesting to see people quibbling back and forth over totally irrelevant topics that are pointless.

    ANYWAY, let's get back to the topic at hand.
    What's their humidity right now?
    The irrelevent pointless topics are just that until you are sold a Cephalotus 'Hummers Giant' or 'Eden Black' that it turns out later were grown from seed and therefore not those cultivars.
    Fred

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    Whimgrinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredg View Post
    Each will be an individual clone. Whatever is produced cannot be called the original cultivar name however.
    To elaborate, any time sexual reproduction is involved in the generation of new individuals (growing from seed), the resulting individuals cannot be referred to as "cultivars" until one (or more) has been selected as special and assigned cultivar status. Using the term "cultivar" to refer to seed-grown plants, regardless of the parents used, is totally erroneous.

    As for the term "clone", it can be used to describe any individual, whether a named cultivar or not, but its application is best limited to describing asexually reproduced divisions of specific individuals. Yes, you can say that each seedling grown from seed is its own "clone", but the popular usage (misuse?) of the term in that way has led many to misunderstand its meaning and therefore we see confusion - not unlike what we've seen in this thread.

    To make it perfectly clear, if you grow seedlings from C. follicularis 'Eden Black' (a named cultivar), you cannot call the seedlings 'Eden Black', because they are genetically unique plants every one, and therefore they are not representatives of the 'Eden Black" clone, but are distinct offspring. You can select seedlings bred from 'Eden Black' and assign them as registered cultivars, but they must be given unique names to identify them as new cultivars.

  3. #19
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    While, for many reasons, I would never refer to a seed grown ceph as the same cultivar of it's parents, I do wnat people reading this to get a full picture of what a cultivar is.
    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultivar
    "Members of a particular cultivar are not necessarily genetically identical. The Cultivated Plant Code emphasizes that different cultivated plants may be accepted as different cultivars, even if they have the same genome, while cultivated plants with different genomes may be regarded as the same cultivar."

    But, with particular importance to cepahlotus...

    "Some cultivars "come true from seed", retaining their distinguishing characteristics when grown from seed. Such plants are termed a "variety", "selection" or "strain" but these are ambiguous and confusing words that are best avoided. In general, asexually propagated cultivars grown from seeds produce highly variable seedling plants, and should not be labelled with, or sold under, the parent cultivar's name."

  4. #20
    mcmcnair's Avatar
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    What Vbkid is saying just above me is concurrent with what is taught at EVERY university that teaches horticulture. Here is the basic gist in case somebody didnt want to read all that though.

    A cultivar is a name given to a plant that is displaying unique characteristics from the original species of that plant. If seed is collected from the designated cultivar the offspring will be genetically different from the parent cultivar. However, plants grown from that seed that display the SAME unique traits as the parent plant CAN be called the same cultivar.

    Hope that helps.
    NCSU's Carnivore Nut
    Original President of the CCPS & Co-Founder
    Mason M.
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  5. #21

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    then where is the line drawn with the seedlings "earning" the cultivar status? they could be very similar but when looked at carefully, there are differences. I was never taught that seedlings from cultivars could be put under the same name regardless of what they look like. If that were the case, why couldn't seedlings from any parent be eligible for that cultivar if the same unique traits are shown?

  6. #22
    i dont do pots. amphirion's Avatar
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    distinct characteristics or behaviors about a plant aka 'Eden Black' vs 'Big Boy' vs 'Hummer's Giant' vs 'Clumping'

    but furthermore, the individual plants need to be subjected to a series of tests, including if the propagules remain true to the original description + if those characteristics are able to be maintained in a variety of conditions.
    " You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya
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  7. #23
    Whimgrinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcmcnair View Post
    However, plants grown from that seed that display the SAME unique traits as the parent plant CAN be called the same cultivar.
    And that is a dreadful premise for defining a unique selection chosen for its horticultural value. This "gray area" definition is often challenged by hybridizers who work in various genera, as it degrades the value and integrity of the work.

    Lets say you were working on a breeding program in your chosen genus, and a new hybrid had become available in commerce. If the "owner" of that new "cultivar" chose a dozen genetically unique individuals to serve as propagating material to make up the commercial body known as "cultivar X", you would have no way of knowing which plant to acquire, and if some of the twelve were horrible breeders, and only one or two had merit as breeding plants. What a hopeless situation. This is what you call corrupted data. Under these conditions I find "cultivar" to be a badly abused term that can lead to horrific documentation errors.

    Would you be happy to discover that S. 'Adtian Slack' turned out to be a group of five genetically unique plants? What if it was discovered twenty years into ownership that two of the five had serious genetic flaws that became evident only when they reached ten years of age or more? What if you had been using your 'Adtian Slack' as breeding stock for years, only to generate garbage seedlings, and yet your friend consistently created beautiful hybrids from his plant? Then to discover you had one of the bad clones and your friend had the good breeding clone? And yet both we're virtually identical in appearance! I don't know about you, but I'd be p*ssed.

    (This is just an example case; S. 'Adrian Slack' is a single clone, of that I certain. However, there is an imposter S. Moorei in commerce erroneously labeled as 'AS', but that's a different issue)

  8. #24
    mcmcnair's Avatar
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    There-in lies the problem! Many people are not trained botanists/taxonomists/horticulturists so they may not notice subtle differences between the parent plant and the seedlings. In my opinion this should not be how it works, but I understand the need for such a distinction. The agricultural industry as a whole grows many plants that are not very good for propagation through cuttings and growing from seed is much more effective. For instance, apples do not come true from seed. However, if I went to the grocery store and bought some 'Granny Smith' apples and planted the seeds and the resulting trees produced sour, cardboard textured, green skinned apples that are approximately the same size as those in the store I could call my apples 'Granny Smith' apples. However, maybe the fruit on my tree are a little larger and less cardboardy textured than those of the original Granny Smith trees which are propagated through grafting. Are they still 'Granny Smith' apples?

    Technically no they are not because they are not in appearance identical and the taste is different. However, it would take an expert on Granny Smith apples to determine this. Trust me I know a couple people that could determine the difference . But if it were some random schmuck that just decided that he wanted to grow his own apples from the grocery store he may just call them Granny Smiths and leave it at that.

    Anyway, the whole idea of a "clone" referring to a named entity is rather confusing which is why I try to avoid the term entirely except when referring to cloning a plant via division, asexual propagation, or tissue culture. It is only a clone if it came asexually from the original cultivar. I.E. a division from Cephalotus follicularis 'Eden Black'

    If you are growing from seed that has been selfed, or hybrid seed you can and SHOULD label it this way. Cephalotus follicularis EX. 'Eden Black' x 'Hummers Giant' for example. If it is selfed seed you should label it Cephalotus follicularis this little circle with an "X" through it 'Eden Black'

    Even if your seedlings appear identical in traits to 'Eden Black' I urge you to call it with the above labels to avoid perpetuating the idea that your seed is genetically identical to 'Eden Black' which is unfortunately what most people think a cultivar is. Even though you are technically well within your rights to call your seedlings Cephalotus follicularis 'Eden Black' if the traits appear to be identical to the original cultivar description.
    NCSU's Carnivore Nut
    Original President of the CCPS & Co-Founder
    Mason M.
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