Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 123

Thread: My first potential Heliamphora cultivar, candidates?

  1. #51
    mcmcnair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    1,044
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Joseph Clemens, the CP database is not entirely correct in some cases and should not be treated as a 100% correct source of information when it comes to taxonomy. I have met Jan Schlauer, a brilliant man who deserves the utmost respect, especially for his efforts on the CP Database. However, it is just him that manages that site and one man cannot keep up with the onslaught of academic publications that are coming up nowadays and as a result there are sometimes mistakes in it. You are better off comparing databases such as Tropicos, iPlant, Biodiversity Heritage Library, IPNI, Hortus III, Index Kewensis, and JStor. Which is what I did to provide my response.

    So let's begin
    Heliamphora tatei var. parva Maguire 1978 and Heliamphora neblinae var. parva Maguire 1978 were published together in the Memoirs of the New York Botanic Garden 29: 59, f. 49: G–H, 50: A–C. 1978.

    In 1984, Steyermark described Heliamphora tatei var. neblinae f. parva as a stat. nov. making this a synonym of H. neblinae var. parva Maguire 1978. Oddly enough, he didn't use H. tatei var. parva Maguire 1978 as the basionym (epithet bringing name) instead choosing H. neblinae which is a completely and very distinct species from H. tatei.

    Side Note: from a hobbyist perspective Steyermark would be considered a lumper while McPherson, et al. would be considered splitters when it comes to Heliamphora.

    McPherson et al. elevate H. neblinae var. parva Maguire 1978 to species status giving it the name H. parva (Maguire) S. McPherson, A. Fleischm., Wistuba & Nerz 2011. They ignore H. tatei var. neblinae f. parva (Maguire) Steyerm. 1984 as a basionym and explain that all the authorities mentioned previously in this post agree that this plant deserves to be a distinct taxon but the level at which it should be named is questionable. Because Steyermark described it as an infraspecific forma of H. tatei, McPherson et al. decided that there were significant morphological differences that distinguish this plant from H. tatei and decided that Steyermark's work is not correct and should not be followed.

    I often find it helpful to look at the taxonomic history of a plant to determine what is the correct name. In a way there are two lineages for this taxon so I agree that this is an unresolved taxon; however, I think McPherson et al. are correct based on my personal knowledge of Heliamphora and their argument made the most sense to me when compared to Steyermark's reasoning.

    1978- H. neblinae var. parva Maguire
    1984- H. tatei var. neblinae f. parva Steyerm.

    or....

    1978- H. neblinae var. parva Maguire
    2011- H. parva S. McPherson, A. Fleischman, Wistuba & Nerz

    Which is correct is a matter of opinion at this point. I thought it might be helpful to present all the facts though to help others form their own opinion.
    NCSU's Carnivore Nut
    Original President of the CCPS & Co-Founder
    Mason M.
    My Growlist

  2. #52
    killerplantsguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    N. CA
    Posts
    486
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Nicely done, Pokie. You are leaving me in the dust!

    Cheers,
    Paul

  3. #53
    hcarlton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Greeley, CO, USA
    Posts
    3,377
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The easiest way to find answers online: not by asking the question, but by posting what at least someone thinks is the wrong answer!
    In all seriousness though, this has become quite taxonomically informational, but I think it's leaning a bit away from the original purpose of the thread.....
    Everything has a reason, whether big or small. Never underestimate the power of what is or is not.
    There is far more to everything than meets the eye.
    Growlist

  4. #54
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona
    Posts
    2,539
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    hcarlton,
    Wasn't the original point, that there were some potential candidates being considered for cultivar registration. There's horticultural nomenclature involved in that. Of course, this divergence is such that cultivars only need be identified as to their genus, and the characteristics that define their cultivar status, and no species epithet is necessary.

    Av8tor1 & mcmcnair,
    Excellent dialog. I appreciate the time that's been invested to further illuminate this subject. Fortunately the majority of CP species are not as much disputed, as are a few. I do not pretend to have all the answers, as concerns CP nomenclature, just a strong interest in using it for our best advantage. I think that when we're discussing those taxon that are, "much in dispute", at least a bit of a footnote could be added, making a note of the situation. Helping all of us, who are less aware, become moreso.

    In effect, that is what happened here. Again, I want to express my great and sincerest appreciation to those who have taken the time to share their own knowledge and understanding of the situation with this taxon - including the excellent references provided. And our posterity will also be able to look back on these threads and gain a better understanding of the cultivation history of these plants.

    It's times like this that I feel, at least a little like I'm accomplishing my job as a moderator.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 02-15-2015 at 09:23 PM.
    Joseph Clemens
    Tucson, Arizona, U S A

  5. #55
    IG #Carnivoregon Randoja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    221
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    When the plant names get edited so much, these threads get ridiculously confusing for people new to the hobby. It's really confusing to read one thing and see that it's been edited, and then read a debate on what it's actually called from numerous sources.

  6. #56
    corky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    warwickshire,england
    Posts
    1,344
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I agree , clear as mud

  7. #57
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona
    Posts
    2,539
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Randoja & corky,
    Perhaps, but such is the nature of taxonomy, names change as more is learned about the plants in question. To learn a plants name, and not learn that the name is, yet, undecided, in flux, or even that it has been changed. These plants, like us, live in the real world, stuff happens and things change.

    That would be like continuing to call Mohammed Ali, Cassius Clay, after everyone else got the memo. Personally, I opt to work at keeping up with changes, until I'm too old to do so, anymore. And that time, I'm sure, is coming too soon.

    For example: Not so long ago, the taxonomy of Chrysamphora californica was updated. It was moved from the genus, Chrysamphora to the genus, Darlingtonia. Of course, documents printed before the change, are immutable, but the understanding of growers and others concerned with this genus, had to change, in order for future publications to carry the updated name. Of course, some will always resist any change, and I'm sure there are some that continue to reject, even this change, though it has been widely accepted in the CP world.

    These kinds of discussions are, for my mind, essential, especially for someone new to the hobby. The sooner the flexibility of taxonomy is realized, the better they will be able to understand CP, and plants in general.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 02-16-2015 at 11:41 AM.
    Joseph Clemens
    Tucson, Arizona, U S A

  8. #58
    Av8tor1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    4,784
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    woot! woot!
    one of mine is in flower!!!!!!!


    Who said Heliamphora grow slow?

  9. #59
    Aristoloingulamata Dexenthes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Southern Tongass Rainforest, Alaska
    Posts
    3,677
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Av8tor1 View Post

    Who said Heliamphora grow slow?
    Everyone who isn't you?

    Congrats!!! Very exciting.
    LOOKING FOR: N. (argentii x bicalcarata) x {[(lingulata x edwardsiana) x (naga x hamata)] x [(klossii x undulatifolia) x (aristolochioides x rajah)]} Growlist: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=124586

  10. #60
    killerplantsguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    N. CA
    Posts
    486
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Amazing, Av8tor! (Also, a bit aggravating to a less skilled grower such as I...)
    Cheers,
    Paul

Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •