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Thread: Which is C. 'Eden Black'?

  1. #17
    Av8tor1's Avatar
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    intensity of coloration or size is a poor standard for cultivar status imho, be it Cephalotus or Heliamphora....

    you're paying for the known pedigree more than a defining characteristic

    Forget HG, I want a "pokie22" ceph!!, those naughty girls get 4"+
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-13-2015 at 07:06 PM. Reason: Nomenclature

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    (unless size is truly unique of course)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Av8tor1 View Post
    intensity of coloration or size is a poor standard for cultivar status imho, be it cephalotus or heliamphora....
    Exactly! That is really the whole point in this thread. Cephalotus is not stable and respond to individual growing conditions. Making Cephalotus cultivars invalid and pointless.

  4. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Av8tor1 View Post
    intensity of coloration or size is a poor standard for cultivar status imho, be it Cephalotus or Heliamphora....
    Quote Originally Posted by DND View Post
    Exactly! That is really the whole point in this thread. Cephalotus is not stable and respond to individual growing conditions. Making Cephalotus cultivars invalid and pointless.
    I think a large part of the issue is one of unrestrained/unrealistic expectations. Basically, people see the pics & expect to have an exact duplicate no matter how they grow the plant. That is unrealistic.

    However, having a plant that has the genetic makeup to truly be different in some sense, is probably worthwhile as a cultivar candidate (although the criteria is still debatable). I grew Cephalotus 'Hummer's Giant' for many years & never got a pitcher as large as Jen's. Does that mean it shouldn't be a cultivar? Even though this clone clearly has the potential to be larger than most others. Also, the C. 'Hummer's Giant' clone rarely got very dark for me. Another clone "Czech Giant" would get almost black under the exact same conditions & media. If C. 'Eden Black' has the potential to get as dark or even more so than the "Czech Giant" clone I grew - doesn't that show that it has different genetic material that has a trait, that when grown in the right conditions, can express itself?

    I get it, that because some traits are not always apparent or obvious & may need specific environmental conditions to be visible - some people will be upset. Because of this, it's also easy for fraudsters to sell fake clones at inflated prices (reinforcing the need for provenance).
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-13-2015 at 07:14 PM. Reason: added link to Pokie's huge HG
    All the best,
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  5. #21
    Whimgrinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RL7836 View Post
    I think a large part of the issue is one of unrestrained/unrealistic expectations. Basically, people see the pics & expect to have an exact duplicate no matter how they grow the plant. That is unrealistic.
    My C. 'Hummer's Giant' has not yet - in three years - produced a pitcher that matched, let alone exceeded the size of the biggest pitcher on my "vigorous" (D. Hastings) clone.

    Provenance, provenance, provenance!
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-13-2015 at 07:20 PM. Reason: Nomenclature

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    Quote Originally Posted by RL7836 View Post
    I think a large part of the issue is one of unrestrained/unrealistic expectations. Basically, people see the pics & expect to have an exact duplicate no matter how they grow the plant. That is unrealistic.

    However, having a plant that has the genetic makeup to truly be different in some sense, is probably worthwhile as a cultivar candidate (although the criteria is still debatable). I grew Cephalotus 'Hummer's Giant' for many years & never got a pitcher as large as Jen's. Does that mean it shouldn't be a cultivar? Even though this clone clearly has the potential to be larger than most others. Also, the C. 'Hummer's Giant' clone rarely got very dark for me. Another clone "Czech Giant" would get almost black under the exact same conditions & media. If 'Eden Black' has the potential to get as dark or even more so than the "Czech Giant" clone I grew - doesn't that show that it has different genetic material that has a trait, that when grown in the right conditions, can express itself?

    I get it, that because some traits are not always apparent or obvious & may need specific environmental conditions to be visible - some people will be upset. Because of this, it's also easy for fraudsters to sell fake clones at inflated prices (reinforcing the need for provenance).
    well, by definition pretty much anything that is cloned or TC'd qualifies as a cultivar...
    It doesn't have to look unique unless it is cross pollinated

    so, you are really making more a statement of pedigree and provenance than appearance when you state your plant is a cultivar.

    "cultivar noun (Webster Concise Encyclopedia)

    Any variety of a plant, originating through cloning or hybridization (see clone, hybrid), known only in cultivation. In asexually propagated plants, a cultivar is a clone considered valuable enough to have its own name; in sexually propagated plants, a cultivar is a pure line (for self-pollinated plants) or, for cross-pollinated plants, a population that is genetically distinguishable
    "
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-13-2015 at 07:21 PM.

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    makes it easier,
    wow...
    Last edited by Av8tor1; 01-09-2015 at 07:26 PM.

  8. #24
    Hello, I must be going... Not a Number's Avatar
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    I recommend all interested should read the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants Eighth Edition (current)

    Chapter II: Definitions
    Article 2: The Cultivar


    2.3. A cultivar is an assemblage of plants that (a) has been selected for a
    particular character or combination of characters, (b) is distinct, uniform, and stable
    in these characters, and (c) when propagated by appropriate means, retains those
    characters (but see Art. 9.1 Note 1).

    *9.1.Note 1. No assemblage of plants can be regarded as a cultivar or Group until its category,
    name, and circumscription has been published. For a grex its name, category, and parentage
    must be published. For the generic name of an intergeneric graft chimaera its name and
    parentage must be published.

    Articles 2.5 through 2.23 further define what is and what is not a cultivar. Contrary to popular believe a cultivar is not confined to a specific clone.

    Examples:
    2.12 An assemblage of individual plants grown from seed derived from
    uncontrolled pollination may form a cultivar when it meets the criteria laid down in
    Art. 2.3 and when it can be distinguished consistently by one or more characters even
    though the individual plants of the assemblage many not necessarily be genetically
    unfiorm.

    Ex. 8. Ballota nigra 'Archer's Variety', Delphinium 'Astolat', Geum 'Lady Stratheden', Lavatera
    'Ice Cool', Milium effusum 'Aureum', Verbena hastata 'Rosea', and Viola 'Penny Black' are cultivars
    which are propagated from seed.

    Ex. 9. When seed is sown of the yellow-fruited cultivar Viburnum opulus 'Xanthocarpum', a
    proportion of the resulting seedlings is indistinguishable from the parent plant; such progeny is to be
    treated as being part of the same cultivar.

    Ex. 10. The seed-raised Betula pendula 'Penla', Hlppophae rhamnoides 'Ram', Larix kaempferi
    'Palsgard Velling', and Rosa Carolina 'Indabes' were selected from plants from known geographical

    (Example: Sarracenia 'Hurricane Creek White')

    2.13 An assemblage of plants grown from seed collected from a particular
    provenance on more than one occasion and clearly distinguishable by one or more
    characters (a topovariant) may form a cultivar.

    Ex. 11
    . If considered distinguishable, plants such as Picea abies of Dutch provenance Gortel-1,
    Syringa vulgaris of a white-flowered Swedish seed source called Veberod, or Eucalyptus
    camaldulensis
    selected from especially fast-growing populations, could be treated as cultivars.

    (Example: Sarracenia 'Hurricane Creek White')

    As far as progeny from selfed seeds:

    2.20. In considering whether two or more plants belong to the same or different
    cultivars, their origins are irrelevant. Cultivars that cannot be distinguished from
    others by any of the means currently adopted for cultivar determination in the group
    concerned are treated as one cultivar.


    Ex. 17. Some cultivars derived from branch sports of Pittosporum 'Garnettii' are indistinguishable
    and therefore belong to a single cultivar, even though these sports have occurred at different times in
    different locations. Pittosporum 'Margaret Turnbull', which originated in New Zealand, appears to be
    identical with P. 'John Flanagan' from Ireland. The International Cultivar Registration Authority for
    Pittosporum designated P. 'Margaret Turnbull' as the accepted name, with P. 'John Flanagan' as a
    later synonym.

    Ex. 18. Dianthus 'William Sim' produces distinguishable mutants that by further mutation give rise
    to a range of variants, some of which are indistinguishable from D. 'William Sim'.
    2.21. If a change in the method of propagation of a cultivar leads to a change in the
    set of characters by which it is distinguished, the plants so produced are not regarded
    as belonging to the same cultivar.

    Ex. 19
    . The double-flowered Campanula trachelium 'Bernice' is usually vegetatively propagated. If
    grown from seed, it may produce a wide range of plants varying in height, degree of doubling, and
    colour. Such seed-raised plants are not to be considered the same as, nor be named as, Campanula
    trachelium
    'Bernice' unless the individual plants cannot be distinguished from this cultivar.

    Ex. 20. Cereus hildmannianus 'Monstrosus' is a teratological form of a cactus that is generally
    increased from cuttings. However, on sowing seed, a proportion of seedlings show the same
    monstrose condition. Whichever way propagation is carried out, the same name is to be applied to the
    monstrose plants that form the cultivar. The non-monstrose plants are treated as indistinguishable
    parts of the species.

    Ex. 21. Hosta 'Halcyon' is vegetatively propagated, yet when increased by micropropagation a
    number of mutants may be generated; one of these has been isolated and multiplied to form the
    cultivar H. 'June'.

    Article 3: The Group


    3.1 The formal category which may comprise cultivars, individual plants or
    combinations thereof on the basis of defined character-based similarity is the Group.
    The Rules for forming Group names are laid out in Art. 22 of this Code.

    3.2 Criteria for forming and maintaing a Group vary according to the required
    purposes of particular users. All members of a Group must share the character(s) by
    which that Group is defined.
    Last edited by Not a Number; 01-09-2015 at 08:19 PM.
    Grand Hotel... always the same. People come, people go. Nothing ever happens.

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