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Thread: Which is C. 'Eden Black'?

  1. #25
    DND's Avatar
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    After Cephalotus is registered as ‘cultivar’ it should be distinct, uniform and stable. To be distinct, it must have characteristics that easily distinguish it from any other known cultivar. To be uniform and stable, the cultivar must retain all these characteristics under repeated propagation in any and in different conditions with no exception.

    However, undoubted fact is that the Cephalotus can not do this in different climates and conditions, because the color is always unstable under different conditions in different growers and all that is once again proved with C. 'Eden Black'.

    So the question is would C. 'Eden Black' deserve cultivar status or not since it was registered only for its color ?

    Should a cultivar show the described characteristics in all typical growing conditions? This of course not only applies to C. 'Eden Black', but any other plant cultivar...

    Unless a plant can show the same traits consistently as those in the cultivar description then I do not see how it can be considered a cultivar.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-13-2015 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Nomenclature

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    Quote Originally Posted by DND View Post
    After Cephalotus is registered as ‘cultivar’ it should be distinct, uniform and stable. To be distinct, it must have characteristics that easily distinguish it from any other known cultivar. To be uniform and stable, the cultivar must retain all these characteristics under repeated propagation in any and in different conditions with no exception.
    If we were to apply this to Cephalotus, there would be not one single variety that could qualify for cultivar status. (Which is fine by me, since there are many "cultivars" distributed without provenance and because of some all-too-casual naming practices, there are plenty of mislabeled varieties distributed.)

  3. #27
    Cthulhu138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whimgrinder View Post
    My 'Hummers Giant' has not yet - in three years - produced a pitcher that matched, let alone exceeded the size of the biggest pitcher on my "vigorous" (D. Hastings) clone.

    Provenance, provenance, provenance!
    I recently got a C. 'Hummer's Giant' who's lineage can be traced back to the original plant. It's definitely different than the one I already had here as C. 'Hummer's Giant'. Whether by accident or malicious intent, I suspect many of the "HG" plants in cultivation are not the true cultivar. I also agree that the naming of many of the Cephalotus cultivars has been too casual, in a similar manner to the way some of the totally normal looking Dionaea cultivars are registered. Very few of these Cephalotus "cultivars" are unique enough to warrant cultivar status in my opinion.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-13-2015 at 07:46 PM.

  4. #28
    Whimgrinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu138 View Post
    I recently got a C. 'Hummer's Giant' who's lineage can be traced back to the original plant. It's definitely different than the one I already had here as C. 'Hummer's Giant'. Whether by accident or malicious intent, I suspect many of the "HG" plants in cultivation are not the true cultivar. I also agree that the naming of many of the Cephalotus cultivars has been too casual, in a similar manner to the way some of the totally normal looking Dionaea cultivars are registered. Very few of these Cephalotus "cultivars" are unique enough to warrant cultivar status in my opinion.
    At this point, I am fairly certain my C. 'Hummer's Giant' isn't really C. 'Hummer's Giant' at all.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-13-2015 at 08:10 PM. Reason: Nomenclature

  5. #29
    NatchGreyes's Avatar
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    I can't say that I've grown many cultivars of Cephalotus, but I agree with Johnny. As far as my experience with VFTs go, there are a heck of a lot of cultivars which look exactly the same in the same conditions. Certainly, keeping the cultivar name lets me know genetic lineage, but, as far as actually being phenotypically "distinct," many of these are not.

  6. #30
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    Now my brain officially hurts - aaargh

    Quote Originally Posted by Not a Number View Post
    I recommend all interested should read the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants Eighth Edition (current)
    Including this link & verbiage is very helpful for this thread/conversation as it is the accepted Authority. If possible, I'd recommend differentiating your inserted comments (or emphasis ie: bold/underline) so they are not confused with the original text.

    I believe this text was added by NaN:
    Contrary to popular believe a cultivar is not confined to a specific clone.
    In general this is obviously true. However, is it also true if vegetative propagation is specified in the published cultivar description? Reading through the original Authority text, there does seem to be verbiage that stresses visible characteristics over possible hidden or genetic attributes.

    Quote Originally Posted by DND View Post
    After Cephalotus is registered as ‘cultivar’ it should be distinct, uniform and stable. To be distinct, it must have characteristics that easily distinguish it from any other known cultivar. To be uniform and stable, the cultivar must retain all these characteristics under repeated propagation in any and in different conditions with no exception.
    Is the bolded text added by DND or is it from the Authority? (I've been unable to locate it in NaN's text or the original -- although due to brain pain, I definitely could have overlooked it).
    All the best,
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    Decumbent Fanatic Jcal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu138 View Post
    Very few of these Cephalotus "cultivars" are unique enough to warrant cultivar status in my opinion.
    agreed. my squat clone is uniquely different, and is the only plant in my collection that i would consider cultivar worth. another plant i would love to have would be bananito. both of these would be based on shape vs color.

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    [QUOTE=Not a Number;1167873]"I recommend all interested should read the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants Eighth Edition (current)

    Chapter II: Definitions
    Article 2: The Cultivar


    2.3. A cultivar is an assemblage of plants that (a) has been selected for a
    particular character or combination of characters, (b) is distinct, uniform, and stable
    in these characters, and (c) when propagated by appropriate means, retains those
    characters (but see Art. 9.1 Note 1).
    .............."QUOTE]



    If the ceph had two central ribs, then even poorly grown it would still have two central ribs.... it would still be distinct, uniform and stable.

    However, can intensity of color or size ever meet this standard when the uniformity and stability of either are affected so much by environmental conditions? (be it Ceph or Heli)
    Last edited by Av8tor1; 01-10-2015 at 11:12 AM.

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