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Thread: Which is C. 'Eden Black'?

  1. #33
    NatchGreyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RL7836 View Post
    Now my brain officially hurts - aaargh

    Including this link & verbiage is very helpful for this thread/conversation as it is the accepted Authority. If possible, I'd recommend differentiating your inserted comments (or emphasis ie: bold/underline) so they are not confused with the original text.

    I believe this text was added by NaN: In general this is obviously true. However, is it also true if vegetative propagation is specified in the published cultivar description? Reading through the original Authority text, there does seem to be verbiage that stresses visible characteristics over possible hidden or genetic attributes.

    Is the bolded text added by DND or is it from the Authority? (I've been unable to locate it in NaN's text or the original -- although due to brain pain, I definitely could have overlooked it).
    Ron:

    Here's what I saw: (Items between * are my own comments)

    2.3 A cultivar is an assemblage of plants that (a) has been selected for a particular character or combination of characters, (b) is distinct, uniform, and stable in these characters, and (c) when propagated by appropriate means, retains those characters (but see Art. 9.1 Note 1 (*publication requirements*)).

    "Distinct" is defined by the ICNC publication as "consistently different in one more more characters so as to permit repeated recognition."
    "Uniform" is defined in the ICNC publication as "a condition in which relevant characteristics do not vary beyond a defined limit."
    "Stable" is defined in the ICNC publication as "a condition in which the relevant characteristics of a taxon remain unchanged."

    *So, yeah, NaN is correct. Essentially any plant which cannot be readily distinguished from other individuals of that species is not a true cultivar, regardless of whether a publication allows it to be published or not. The plant has to have characteristics which do not vary beyond a defined limit, and those characteristics must allow repeated recognition. Under the "Quick Guide for New Cultivar Names" the following is stated:*

    A single plant is not a cultivar: a cultivar is a group of individual plants which collectively is distinct from any other, which is uniform in its overall appearance and which remains stable in its attributes. Do not attempt to name a cultivar until you have a number of individual which are uniform and stable.

    *The definition of "stable" has to incorporate growing in "different conditions." What good would it do to propagate a handful of individuals and keep them all in the exact same conditions? How would that weed out any plants, except for the occasional mutation, which, one would imagine, would go away on its own as the plant with it grew?

    From this, I understand cultivar to mean a plant with a distinctive characteristic that will present in any suitable growing condition. For example, a plant which is bright blue in bright light instead of green or red. That blue coloration should be present in any suitable growing condition where there is bright light.

    Now, moving on to propagation. How do we propagate a cultivar?*

    2.4 Cultivars differ in their mode of origin and reproduction, for example as described in Art. 2.5 - 2.19. Whatever the means of propagation, only those plants which maintain the characters that define a particular cultivar may be included within that cultivar.

    *2.5 - 2.19 describe various propagation methods. All appear to utilize some genetic material from the original plant.

    So, I don't believe that you can restrict how a cultivar is propagated by its description. All you have to do is ensure the progeny meet the original cultivar description. See also Barry's Rice's registration of 'Othello' ("Many people mistakenly think that cultivars may only be propagated by vegetative (asexual) means such as cuttings or tissue culture. The truth is that cultivars may be propagated by any method, as long as the plants resulting from propagation still match the original cultivar description.").

    So, for instance, if you were to take our bright blue plant, you could clone it, divide it, or cross it with itself, regardless of what the original cultivar description said about propagation. To still be known as the cultivar, however, the progeny must meet the original cultivar description. Obviously, the clones and divisions should, but the selfed seed? That you'll have to grow out to the point where the seedlings are mature enough to display the characteristic (the "blueness"). Any non-blue seed-grown plants are not the cultivar. Only the blue ones are the cultivar.

    Hope I've gotten all that right and clarified cultivars for some people.*

  2. #34
    Decumbent Fanatic Jcal's Avatar
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    So when do we find out which one is C. 'Eden black'?
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-13-2015 at 09:01 PM. Reason: Nomenclature

  3. #35
    Cthulhu138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcal View Post
    agreed. my squat clone is uniquely different, and is the only plant in my collection that i would consider cultivar worth. another plant i would love to have would be bananito. both of these would be based on shape vs color.
    The squat clone is definitely one of the more unique ones out there. The reason I'm even interested in getting most of the different "cultivars" out there is for genetic diversity for future pollination attempts. Better chance of getting a greater variation in seedlings that way.

  4. #36
    Decumbent Fanatic Jcal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu138 View Post
    The squat clone is definitely one of the more unique ones out there. The reason I'm even interested in getting most of the different "cultivars" out there is for genetic diversity for future pollination attempts. Better chance of getting a greater variation in seedlings that way.
    Funny you should say that. Since my success with seed last year I have decided that I'm done collection clones and using the plants I have to produce seed. I had a problem with head room last year, so I have already pick out a greenhouse to dedicate to Cephalotus. Growing from seed is going to be my new focus.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-13-2015 at 09:03 PM. Reason: Nomenclature

  5. #37
    CephFan's Avatar
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    From a previous thread on a diferent forum here was my personal opinion last year:

    The following is my personal opinion:

    __________________________________________

    1.
    It is reasonable to expect that we will see some genetically controlled variation in a population of individual organisms* where these are genetically non-identical and generated by sexual reproduction** as opposed to populations generated by spreading rhizomes or cuttings in horticulture.

    * (in this case plants)
    **(i.e. the flower/seed cycle)
    __________________________________________

    2.
    There is little doubt that Cephalotus follicularis is sensitive to micro-environmental differences. This has an impact on the observed characteristics in the wild in terms of size, growth rate and colouration. These differences may be driven by variation in temperature, soil conditions, water, sun exposure/shade and other factors. As these conditions vary through the growing year the colouration etc would also vary depending on the date of observation.
    __________________________________________

    3.
    It is reasonable to expect that careful observation of seed raised plants in horticulture will identify some phenotypic differences that are genetically controlled (see 1). If propagated by asexual means* then this differences will be preserved forming a genetic line** that may or may not be registered as a cultivar.
    *(i.e. root or leaf cuttings)
    **(clones)
    __________________________________________

    4.
    Taking into account the variability of the species discussed in 1 it is to be expected that horticultural growers will see mixed results when they grow the genetically selected examples in 3.
    __________________________________________


    I know that Stephen has spent a long time observing his own plants.
    - In the case of the cultivar C. follicularis 'Eden Black' it is believed that this clone has a genetic propensity towards more intense colouration than many other examples.
    - However differences in growing conditions will mean that it is more or less coloured for some growers.
    - In the right conditions this cultivar should show a very dark purple/black colouration when compared to other examples in the same conditions.
    Also I was trying to look into the cultivar status of Hydrangea. These show variable colour based largely on soil pH and yet flower colour appears to be significant in the cultivar descriptions with notes that it is variable.

    Cephalotus is certainly vairble depending on conditions. As far as I know all can be grown 'green' and I am certainly still waiting for significant differences to show between many of my 'named' plants but I am keeping an open mind.

    Cheers,
    Steve
    Proud holder of every species in the family Cephalotaceae in my collection.

  6. #38
    DND's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CephFan View Post
    - In the case of the cultivar C. follicularis 'Eden Black' it is believed that this clone has a genetic propensity towards more intense colouration than many other examples.
    Then I have to register this one being seed grown C. Northcliffe location plant, cuz it has " genetic propensity towards more intense colouration than many other examples "....

    What do u think?






  7. #39
    corky's Avatar
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    "Bulgarian Black" , Dimitri have you given divisions to other growers, if so how is the colour of their plants compared to yours, truly great colour on that ceph
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-13-2015 at 09:13 PM. Reason: Nomenclature - single quotes are reserved for registered cultivar names

  8. #40
    CephFan's Avatar
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    It's a great colour. Also as it seed grown from a named location it would not be a bad thing to identify it's genetic provenance so that future growers are able to tell what plants they are growing or indeed using for cross pollination.

    Whether or not it gets actual cultivar status it has some great genes!
    Cheers
    Steve
    Proud holder of every species in the family Cephalotaceae in my collection.

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