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Thread: Poachers

  1. #25

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    Wow. That has to be the longest thread I've ever started. One other thing I was thinking of: "poaching" of natural hybrids. is it acceptable? not any different from "species poaching"? i know if I were to walk through a dense stand of leuco's somewhere, i would be in awe, nothing more. if i were to walk through a dense stand of a wide variety of naturally occurring, stunning hybrids, i would be in awe, yet I would also be salivating, and perhaps seeing if anyone was around [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_m_32.gif[/img]

  2. #26

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    PYRO<
    I don't think PDX is questioning ABG's ethics but he is using the GA leuco as an example, probably not the best one. You are close to ABG and know the behind the scenes activities that most of the rest of the public CP world does not. You make excellent points about conservatation vs preservation that I did not understand fully. So, it is good that these topics come up from time to time so that we all can learn. There may never be a consensus but at least there is an open dialogue.
    I remain a man obsessed with a genus
    Brooks

  3. #27
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    Pyro,

    I think the key point in PDX's message is that making a plant widely available will release pressure from the site. As long as you keep the plants rare, they will have a premium value and someone could find the value in robbing the site.
    I don't agree with some of your points about comparing Sarracenia to black rhinos or lab mice. As I've mentioned before, 2 pods from the site could generate enough material to satisfy the globe. Personally, I enjoy hybrids but, appreciate others interests in having named location plants. Is it really that unthinkable to make some of these plants available to hobbyists?
    ABG has unquestionably done a lot of work for Sarracenia habitat. However, they have made many quick bucks on the sales of plants like 'Akai Ryu.' Personally, I'm glad they have. I don't understand why they don't continue with other plants. The J.C.Raulston Arboretum in Raleigh,NC has a world-class collection of trees and shrubs. They make tremendous efforts to propagate material for sale to anyone, not just to botanical gardens.
    Smile, imduff

  4. #28

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    Pyro,

    Thank you for taking the time to answer some of my questions regarding the ABG and leucophylla. Since you're familiar with some of ABG's operations I think it would be great if you could post more regarding the work being done by them. I'm sorry if you felt I was in any way questioning the ethics of ABG as that was not my intention and I didn't feel my post read that way.

    I appreciate the fact that Imduff & Mr. Obsessed took time to respond to some of the issues I was trying to raise. My hope in posting was to further the discussion about the difficult issues of wild collecting, tissue culture as a means of protecting remaining stands, stewardship, etc.

    I also think Bugweed and BobZ have made some very good points as far as "poaching" goes. Both brought new views and insights to the thread that make us think about things a little deeper.

    So, I feel I've had my say and perhaps it's time to move myself back over to the "photos" thread [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]

  5. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I think the key point in PDX's message is that making a plant widely available will release pressure from the site. As long as you keep the plants rare, they will have a premium value and someone could find the value in robbing the site
    I can see your reason but what everyone needs to understand is that ABG is not trying to "keep the plants rare." They are trying to protect the wild stand and ensure its stability. You can not superimpose the mindset of a "greedy" hobbyist to a carefully planned, large scale, long term organizational project.

    As Brooks pointed out, I know more of the behind the scenes stuff than most of the CP community. And I need to remember that when I am involved in conversations like this one. On the flip side since everyone else has less information than I do then they need to remember that as well and not make judgments based on the little that they do know.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I don't agree with some of your points about comparing Sarracenia to black rhinos or lab mice.
    I was more shooting for analogies and not direct comparisons. Yes the black rhino one is a bit over the top but I was trying to make a point that sometime it is better to let experts handle things. As for the lab mouse comparison, it is has a lot more to do with the situation. You can insert any wild vs. domestic animal/plant and the argument basically holds true. Wolf vs. dog. Wild turkey vs. domestic turkey. Maize vs. corn. The wild type is always better suited for the wild.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]As I've mentioned before, 2 pods from the site could generate enough material to satisfy the globe.
    True. But 2 pods from cultivated plants could also supply the globe. And as I mentioned before the goal of the ABG consevation effort is not to "satisfy" the CP community but to protect the plants.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Is it really that unthinkable to make some of these plants available to hobbyists?
    Actually yes it is, again you are falling into the trap of viewing the ABG as if it were a hobbyist. ABGs first and foremost goal with the GA leuco is to protect the wild stand. If they just focused on getting the plants into the hands of hobbyists then what would they do if the stand got destroyed? As I said, you can not successfully restock a site with "domesticated" plants, they are weak and suffer lack of genetic diversity.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]However, they have made many quick bucks on the sales of plants like 'Akai Ryu.'
    Not really they have not. Ron Gagliardo bred the 'Akai Ryu' and registered it and got it into TC before he ever got to ABG. So all the money made off sales of 'Akai Ryu' go to Ron and not ABG. Now Ron may give ABG that money for all I know but if he does that is his decision. And truth be told I seriously doubt he makes that much off of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I don't understand why they don't continue with other plants.
    Ah, but they do. 'Tarnok' is an ABG plant as is 'Dente'. The TC S. montana is from ABG stock as are about half of the other TC plants out there, you see ABG supplied the original flasks to AgriStarts. They are also working on other things but as great and wonderful as TC is it still takes time and, as I have said in may a thread, patience is a virtue.

    PDX,

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Thank you for taking the time to answer some of my questions regarding the ABG and leucophylla.
    Not a problem at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Since you're familiar with some of ABG's operations I think it would be great if you could post more regarding the work being done by them.
    I will see what I can do. Not sure when I will next be talking to anyone there.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I'm sorry if you felt I was in any way questioning the ethics of ABG as that was not my intention and I didn't feel my post read that way.
    I am sure I am more to blame and my comment was not directly aimed at you. As Brooks said, I am close with ABG and sometimes I get in a huff when I feel they are being disrespected.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I feel I've had my say and perhaps it's time to move myself back over to the "photos" thread
    I hope that I have not scared you off, that was not my intention. Please do continue to contribute.
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

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  6. #30
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    Again, keeping the plants rare will give them a premium value. With a premium value comes the motivation to find the site and rob it. If the site is large, it may not matter but, if the site is small, the stability could be diminished. Rather than worry about someone finding the site and removing plants, why not remove any motivation to find it.
    I remember well the release of 'Akai Ryu.' I was one of the many that sent ABG $7 for a single plant. Ron was at ABG when he bred it there and released it. This was prior to his leaving ABG and returning several years later. If it's that important check the '95 CPN or check with Ron. My point is ABG has done well selling plants in their giftshop and through royalties. I say keep it going. They have state of the art tissue culture facilities and the staff to run it. Why not use it?
    We can argue whether they should or shouldn't release plants and their "goals." The spirit of sharing is how they've improved their collections and facilities. I think perpetuating this spirit should be a goal.
    I'm not privy to the workings of ABG, just my opinion.
    imduff

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (imduff @ Oct. 14 2004,2:48)]Again, keeping the plants rare will give them a premium value. With a premium value comes the motivation to find the site and rob it. If the site is large, it may not matter but, if the site is small, the stability could be diminished.
    Imduff,

    Thanks for bringing this thought to the discussion. Aside from development, which we all agree is probably the largest threat to sarracenia, this seems to be a rarely discussed topic that does to some degree effect the stability of sarracenia.

    The other side of this issue though seems to be why some sources charge extremely high prices for a plant that maybe isn't all that rare? I have to wonder what the reasoning is when a vendor* offers a plant for $100.00+? I can see if it's a new discovery or one that a grower has spent years breeding but when, for example it's just a plain oreophila (or alata, albino plants, etc.) doesn't this also increase the odds of someone saying "forget it, I'll just dig one up next time I'm out in the bog"? I realize orephila is rare, but when you have a stable, continuous nursery stock it seems the price should reflect this. It would seem that a supply and demand situation would occur, but with high prices the demand may turn to an easier (bad) alternative. This in turn could lead to an ever-growing supply from propagation but a diminishing demand due to high (my opinion) prices....

    I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts on the pricing matter.

    * No specific vendor, website or dealer is implied. This was a generalization based upon too many hours viewing every possible website offering plants for sale. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]

  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (imduff @ Oct. 14 2004,2:48)]Again, keeping the plants rare will give them a premium value. With a premium value comes the motivation to find the site and rob it.If the site is large, it may not matter but, if the site is small, the stability could be diminished. Rather than worry about someone finding the site and removing plants, why not remove any motivation to find it.
    And again I have to say that ABG is not trying to keep the plant rare. They do not want there to be a premium value to the plant but they can not release any plants until their conservation work is done. And as I have also stated, no one is going to undertake a massive rearing of the GA leuco because it looks like any other leuco. I donlt know anyplance that specializes in locatin data plants. Heck I don't know any place that even keeps track of location data that is meerly a obsession of the hobbyist.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I remember well the release of 'Akai Ryu.' I was one of the many that sent ABG $7 for a single plant. Ron was at ABG when he bred it there and released it. This was prior to his leaving ABG and returning several years later. If it's that important check the '95 CPN or check with Ron.
    I may be wrong but I seem to recall a conversation with Ron where he said he breed 'Akai Ryu' while he was in college and he still lived in his parents basement. Maybe I am thinking of one of his other TC plants though.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]My point is ABG has done well selling plants in their giftshop and through royalties.
    I do not know that you could necessaraly say they do "well." The running costs of an institution that large have to be huge and I seriously doubt that the giftshop sale of plants amounts to a drop of water in the sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]They have state of the art tissue culture facilities and the staff to run it. Why not use it?
    They do use it but they have a lot more on their plates than just catering to the wants of the CP community. They have over 300 endangered orchids that they are working on in the TC lab. They have hundreds of other species outside of the CPs and orchids that they work on too. The space in that TC lab is already at a premium fulfilling their professional needs (For those of you that have not been to ABG the TC lab is about the size of a large closet, maybe 8' X 8') Should they just drop all that aside in the interest of making a handful of CPs commercially available?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The spirit of sharing is how they've improved their collections and facilities. I think perpetuating this spirit should be a goal.
    It is a goal but it does not take priority over the conservation goal. I do not understand why people think it is more important to get plants into the hands of hobbyists that it is to conserve and protect the natural stands.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I'm not privy to the workings of ABG
    Yet you see fit to criticize their actions. This is what I do not understand.



    I am starting to feel like a form of greed from the CP community is being perverted into an argument for why ABG is doing the wrong thing when it comes to the conservation of the GA leuco. ABG colaberates with the Forest Service, BLM, Park Service, DNR, TNC and dozens of other organizations when they come up with their conservation plans. The plants are discussed at great length and planned in every slight detail. Why does no on consider that these groups have a better grasp of what needs to be done than the average CP grower? Why do people see fit to question the activity of these groups just because it does not mesh with their own view of how things should be done? Are everyday hobby CPers smarter and better informed that these professionals? Do any of us seriously have enough understanding of the situation to go about questioning the actions of these professionals? They have their reasons for doing things the way that they do. Is it possible to accept that their reasons are sound and not think that we know better?

    Here is something else for everyone to think on: If ABG were to offer the GA plants very few people would buy them because they look just like any other leuco that you probably already have in your collection. So why should they waste their time and money on a project to supply tons of plants when most of them will not be purchased?
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

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