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Thread: Poachers

  1. #33
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (PDX @ Oct. 14 2004,3:59)]The other side of this issue though seems to be why some sources charge extremely high prices for a plant that maybe isn't all that rare?
    This is a great point PDX.

    Some plants will always be seen as "prizes" because the commercial vendors will pimp them that way. The oreo example is a good one to run with. Anyone here could get an oreo for free if they asked around and were patient. However, if you want to buy one it will likely cost you a fair amount just because the vendors know that they are viewed as "prized" plants. Another one I have seen that I really do not understand it the "Okee Giant" form of minor or S. rosea going for $100. This is beyond ridiculous, especially when you consider that these plants are not rare by any means, either in the wild or in cultivation.
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

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  2. #34

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    It is sad when institutions or even individuals are seemingly hoarding well sought-after specimens. I have to confess ignorance as to what is happening at ABG. I've never even been to GA, other than switching planes at the Atlanta airport. Obviously, they are doing some important work in conserving this genus, but I do wonder if the apparent lack of distribution of their rare specimens negates some of their efforts.

    Regards to pricing - pretty much every plant i've bought has been at what I consider an honest price. I consider up to around $20 fair for any plant. Even when my wife and I were both grad students, and would have to eat mac and cheese for a week before most monthly paydates, i was buying plants left and right. Which is why we ate a lot of mac and cheese no doubt. I think when you get higher than $20, it simply becomes an issue of monetary gain for the seller, which, in my opinion, it should be not! The only exception I can think of would be something like the NASCS benefit auction (boy I'm still peeved I was too broke to buy anything at that time, having just moved across country with no job yet). I know of someone selling a division of a plant for $30, almost reasonable, from a plant that sells for $50 on a certain website. Even that is just wrong in my opinion. To me, it amounts to nothing more than getting your $$ back. Said website has many other expensive plants for sale. Why sell so high? I highly doubt those plants are flying off the shelves. I understand said website is an NPO, but I would think you would raise more $$ if the prices were lower. I only had economics in high school, but I think if they were to lower their prices by 50%, at least of the expensive ones, they'd sell at least twice as many as they sell now. I understand they may only have a few available, but at least they'd sell. Some of those plants have been for sale for a long time. Personally, I think many of those plants aren't all that great and I would only consider purchasing at a much lower price. I guess someone out there is buying, though, otherwise you'd think the prices would've come down by now. I don't know, maybe i'm just bitter since I really haven't had much expendable cash since I got into this hobby. I tend to be extremely pessimistic, however, I am optimistic that eventually these plants will get into the hands of generous growers, who will in turn provide them to other generous growers, and, eventually, they will be readily available at much lower prices, forcing the greedy nice guys to lower their own prices. Enough rambling from me. my wrists are too sore to continue.

  3. #35
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (sarracenia @ Oct. 14 2004,5:19)]Obviously, they are doing some important work in conserving this genus, but I do wonder if the apparent lack of distribution of their rare specimens negates some of their efforts.
    Under that logic the important efforts by the ICPS are negated because they have only once distributed threatened plants (the S. alabamensis clones) despite all the conservation projects they are involved in and all the plants from those that they undoubtedly have.
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

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  4. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Pyro @ Oct. 15 2004,9:32)]Under that logic the important efforts by the ICPS are negated because they have only once distributed threatened plants (the S. alabamensis clones) despite all the conservation projects they are involved in and all the plants from those that they undoubtedly have.
    Unless I'm mistaken, that plant distribution program was a one-time thing. It's not as if the ICPS itself is maintaining a population of those plants. They were able to obtain a large amount of seed, raised them for two years or whatever it was, then gave them away. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the ICPS actually grows any plants, as an organization. Certainly all members of it do. But is there a plant collection somewhere under the strict control of the ICPS? I haven't heard of any. Also, the ICPS is now, that they got the legal loopholes erased, selling alabamensis seed. Not the same as a plant, but pretty darn close. Now, if other "hoarders" would just follow suit....

  5. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Pyro @ Oct. 14 2004,4:29)]Here is something else for everyone to think on: If ABG were to offer the GA plants very few people would buy them because they look just like any other leuco that you probably already have in your collection. So why should they waste their time and money on a project to supply tons of plants when most of them will not be purchased?
    Pyro,

    You don't seem to want to read my comments. Making something rare, deliberately or not, gives it a premium value. This is my fundemental point. You worry about people trying to locate the site for themselves, or even disclose location information about it. Are you worried that someone might want to poach it? Again, if material became easily available, this would likely eliminate any desire for someone to "take it into their own hands." I would think that this would be a favorable outcome for the stewarts of the site.
    Additionally, making material available is not a significant undertaking, as you imply. I highly doubt it would take any time or resources away from the conservation work. Stated simply, the effort to make these plants available to others is minimal; however, the rewards in eliminating poaching pressure from the site may be significant in ensuring the stability of the site. It's not difficult to understand why people might interpret any reluctance to distribute, as hoarding. This is not critisizm but, simply questioning.
    I think you underestimate the ability of people in the cp community that you call the "obsessive hobbyist." Many of these people are involved in cultivation, and nature in general. Many aren't clouded in their judgements by having to obtain an income from these plants but, are involved in cp for a love of nature's wonders. There are a number of these people that you call, "obsessive hobbyists" that likely have more field experience than you could imagine. Their motivation? A passion for these plants and nature. That kind of devotion shouldn't be negated, nor underestimated.
    Personally, I could care less about having a specimen of the GA leuco but, there seems to be enough desire in the cp community worthy of consideration of a small-scale release.
    Finally, these conservation efforts are possible from the sharing and generosity of others. Perpetuating this generosity and sharing is a responsibility.
    Just my humble opinion, imduff

  6. #38

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    Imduff makes good sense and has many fine points. I myself could care less about the inner workings of ABG, but know they work their butts off. I am behind them 100% in their efforts. I still believe what Imduff has said should be strongly considered. That is why I have instigated the NASC, for all of us to have the location species we desire, and relieve the "poaching" burden off of some locations, reducing the money aspect that seems to drive too many hobbyists. Anyone who needs a plant, just ask. There are many on this forum who are delighted to share. And Pyro is one of them. As is Brooks, me, and many others. We want people to have what they want so that this so called need to strip the land bare in pursuit of a fast buck, be eliminated. I think all CP'ers who love these plants in their hearts, share this common goal, to share with any and all who love these plants, and wish to protect them as much as we can. NASC will do that, and be sure we all can have what we want, and for the price of the shipping only. I believe purp montana's should be more widely available to all who desire one, as so the Georgia leuc, if it is so important to some to have it. But, this is something that can only come of trust from those that are in charge. They have been burned by those who swore their love to the plants, and the love for the site, only to turn around to make money off the site. Can you blame them for being so gun shy?? They don't know who to trust, and too many folks only see dollar signs where these plants are concerned. We may have to move slow, but I understand Pyro's point of view, and Imduffs. I do think that they should cut loose some seed of this site to alleviate the pressure of poaching, but they should have a great degree of information from those growing them out to distribute them. It will take time, effort, and work, but with the people on these Forums, I think it can be done. Put in a good word for us (NASC), Pyro. We would like to help.



    45 yrs. growin\'
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  7. #39
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    How many people who buy CPs care about location data? It can't be very many because the big vendors don't provide it.

    I think if the last stand of Georgia leucs is poached, the plants won't go to people who would care about the difference between a leuc from Georgia or Alabama. Poachers of relatively low value/low demand plants run too much risk of being caught if they advertise the origin. The only reason for poaching leucs from the last stand in Georgia instead of anywhere else would be that it's convenient for the poacher.

    If a poacher moves in and grabs the plants, the plants will be sold as leucs, not as leucs from the last stand in Georgia. They'll be unloaded to small garden centers or to a disreputable national vendor or to florists or maybe even listed on eBay. And the eventual buyers won't know or care about the origin.

    I only know from what I read, but it seems poachers go for striking plants, such as leucs and red tube flavas. Nondescript plants seem to be left alone to die from draining, grazing, succession, development, etc. Scarcity doesn't seem to be so important. Maybe it's different for the endangered species, but here's a paragraph from the US FWS' S. jonesii page:

    "Sixteen historic sites of this plant have been eliminated by the alteration of wetland habitat. Of these sites, six were destroyed after their habitat was drained; four were flooded by impoundments; three were converted into golf courses; two were eliminated by industrial development, and one was converted to agricultural use. At least two of the remaining 1O have been somewhat damaged by these activities. Occasional, moderate disturbance is necessary to maintain the species' habitat and reduce the encroachment of woody plants (natural succession). Natural disturbance has been suppressed in most bogs, and hydrological regimes have been changed to alter natural flooding and drought cycles. As a result, woody plants dominated many sites, creating a drier, shadier habitat unsuitable for pitcher plant survival. The role played by fire in this mountain species' habitat is still speculative, but fire may historically have opened areas for colonization. Severe droughts in consecutive years and the channelization of nearby streams also threaten the plant's habitat."

    It does continue to a generic mention of collection being a problem, but doesn't mention any site lost to poachers.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

  8. #40
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    I think most people,including me would rather have a plant with location data.Every time I offer divisions of my S.minor Long Co.Ga.,people snap em up!

    Jerry

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