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Thread: S. purpurea in california?

  1. #17
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (JBL @ May 27 2005,8:14)]Once we are gone, I don't think it will really matter what happens to species left behind--we won't be around to care about it anymore.
    it matters a lot to the species left behind! [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_k_ani_32.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_m_32.gif[/img]

    thats like saying "after im dead it doesent matter what happens to my children (or the Earth, or whatever)
    because I wont care..because I will be dead."

    it matters a lot!
    the fact that humans will be extinct is irrelevant..
    just because we might cease to care about something because we are dead doesnt mean its still not vitally important..

    im sure the next species that evolves to our level of intelligence after we are exticnt will care plenty about how we altered its environment..
    (well, then again..by then things will have probably evened out a lot..a few million years will do wonders to obliterate all evidence that we were ever here..)

    Scot

  2. #18
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    I think what JBL may mean is that nature has a way of working things out. Look at the sundews in the Hawaiian islands (or almost all the plants and animals there.) They rafted over by chance, hopping hundreds to thousands of miles between little chains of sparsely distributed islands. It wasn't like they evolved there hand in hand with everything else. I'm sure they caused a big stir when they arrived on the scene.
    Non-native, invasive species create problems in time spans of our lifetimes and societies. But on a geological, evolutionary scale, it's really more of a drop in the bucket. We only notice because we're closely dependant on certain ecosystems and climates. Crazy things happen all the time at the geological scale - scientists have even given it a name, 'genetic drift.' There will always be chance events that remove and replace members of ecosystems, and mankind doing so is just another example.
    The real issue is that invasive species cause troble for the balance of power here and now. I don't think that cane toads are going to end life on Earth - really, the big threats there are world war, and possibly deforestation. If the vertebrate food chain collapses (which is a more likely possibility) then perhaps we'll lose all the vertebrates, the jellyfish, some of the flowering plants, and closely associated species from other groups, but I don't think that insects, lowers chordates, ferns, bacteria, fungi, deep sea fauna and hardy plants like ivy will kick it any time soon. That's more than enough to recover from a mass extinction. Life goes on; species don't.
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  3. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (scottychaos @ May 27 2005,3:03)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (JBL @ May 27 2005,8:14)]Once we are gone, I don't think it will really matter what happens to species left behind--we won't be around to care about it anymore.
    it matters a lot to the species left behind! [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_k_ani_32.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_m_32.gif[/img]

    thats like saying "after im dead it doesent matter what happens to my children (or the Earth, or whatever)
    because I wont care..because I will be dead."

    it matters a lot!
    the fact that humans will be extinct is irrelevant..
    just because we might cease to care about something because we are dead doesnt mean its still not vitally important..

    im sure the next species that evolves to our level of intelligence after we are exticnt will care plenty about how we altered its environment..
    (well, then again..by then things will have probably evened out a lot..a few million years will do wonders to obliterate all evidence that we were ever here..)

    Scot
    Hi ScottyChaos,
    My comment does not mean that we should not care, and should not be stewards of the land and all creatures. It simply means what it says. There is not one living creature today (that we know of--debate avoidance) that will know what happened.

    Life will indeed go on as Seedjar points out. The native rotundifolia is not going to turn to the capensis and say 'wish those humans wouldn't have put you there'. Yes, maybe in a few million (more like many million) years an intelligent life form will be able to figure out what happened. This is a big contingency. Maybe life will take this turn, who knows? Maybe the planet will never have another quote 'intelligent' life form. Rewind Earth's history at any given point, change something, and bam (slow bam, over eons)--different outcome. But believing this does not make me uncaring.

    I think I also made it known that I do not support our tampering with the environment. In summary, it matters to us a whole lot as a moral issue because of who we are. It certainly will alter the existence of remaining species. Seedjar said it best, and my opinions are joined with his.

    Scot, I know exactly what you mean by caring and doing what we can in our lifetime. If I led you to feel otherwise with my comments, I apologize. I thank your for responding and taking the time to clarify what others may perceive as a fatalistic, 'does it really matter anyway' attitude. That was not my intent, but I do realize my terse comments made it seem that way. And Seedjar, thak you for an intelligent articulation of my half baked/evolved post.
    My chicken legs taste like chicken--only less meaty.

  4. #20
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (JBL @ May 27 2005,11:55)]Hi ScottyChaos,
    My comment does not mean that we should not care, and should not be stewards of the land and all creatures. It simply means what it says. There is not one living creature today (that we know of--debate avoidance) that will know what happened.

    Life will indeed go on as Seedjar points out. The native rotundifolia is not going to turn to the capensis and say 'wish those humans wouldn't have put you there'. Yes, maybe in a few million (more like many million) years an intelligent life form will be able to figure out what happened. This is a big contingency. Maybe life will take this turn, who knows? Maybe the planet will never have another quote 'intelligent' life form. Rewind Earth's history at any given point, change something, and bam (slow bam, over eons)--different outcome. But believing this does not make me uncaring.

    I think I also made it known that I do not support our tampering with the environment. In summary, it matters to us a whole lot as a moral issue because of who we are. It certainly will alter the existence of remaining species. Seedjar said it best, and my opinions are joined with his.

    Scot, I know exactly what you mean by caring and doing what we can in our lifetime. If I led you to feel otherwise with my comments, I apologize. I thank your for responding and taking the time to clarify what others may perceive as a fatalistic, 'does it really matter anyway' attitude. That was not my intent, but I do realize my terse comments made it seem that way. And Seedjar, thak you for an intelligent articulation of my half baked/evolved post.
    Joe,
    yes, I did read it as "why should we care? we will be dead anyway"..
    thanks for clearing it up! [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]

    Scot

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    "I think what JBL may mean is that nature has a way of working things out. Look at the sundews in the Hawaiian islands (or almost all the plants and animals there.) They rafted over by chance, hopping hundreds to thousands of miles between little chains of sparsely distributed islands. It wasn't like they evolved there hand in hand with everything else. I'm sure they caused a big stir when they arrived on the scene." seedjar

    I'm not sure of where your going with this but Hawaii has many endemic species of plants and animals that can be found no where else in the world. In the time that people have lived on the islands many native species have disappeared either from introduced species or from people themselves. Also if your refering to D. anglica it is only found on one island in a few places, the island of Kauai, the oldest of all the current islands. These aren't your average D. anglica and some one correct if I'm wrong, but the D. anglica on Kauai don't form hibernacula the rosette simply gets smaller during the winter and the plants are smaller then there continental cousins. I don't mean to be nit picking, but you just happened to choose the place where most of my family lives.
    \"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.\" Dwight D. Eisenhower

  6. #22
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    I'm not saying those species aren't defined as endemic, KS. What I'm saying is that Hawaii was underwater 70 million years ago while the sundews were already off to a running start. Much of the terrestrial life on the Hawaiian islands did not arise there independently but came to live there by chance events. I'm not entirely familiar with the geological history of Hawaii, but I am fairly sure that it has never been connected to a land mass. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Though the D. anglica in Hawaii is distinct from other strains (I think you're right about no hibernacula) it's had 70 million years - approximately half the age of the flowering plants - to get there. But we can be fairly sure that the Hawaiian form of the English sundew didn't arise in Hawaii, independent from the sundews which originated on the mainland (was it in Africa?) If they had, we wouldn't classify them as sundews at all; they would almost certainly be genetically distinct by a factor far greater than the difference between the species of sundews, and accordingly we would give them their own taxa.
    Rather, we don't even classify them as a unique species - they are so close genetically that they are only distinct by their growth habit. Likewise, many other sundews, and plants in general, display this kind of variability; the strains of Drosera intremedia have temperate forms, which form hibernacula, and tropical forms which do not. It's likely that you could selectively breed a population of temperate-form D. intremedia to not require dormancy, or breed a Hawaiian-form D. anglica to recover it's habit of producing hibernacula, because it is a close ancestor of a plant which does produce them.
    Remember that Hawaii wasn't forming until the age of dinosaurs was well into it's close. I believe that most of the families of plants and many of the families of animals that we see today were already distinct and well established at this time, approximately 98% of the way between the supposed origin of life and today. The species that occur on Hawaii do not defy taxonomy and require their own kingdoms and families - they are distinct relatives of types of creatures that abound all over the world. So, whether they are endemic is not really a question, because no matter what, they're only 70 million years new at the most. I'm not saying that those species are not unique, but they had to come from somewhere, and when they finally got to Hawaii, they managed to cooperate well enough with each other to survive for an entire geological epoch, and even speciate to become distinct from their progenetors that crossed the ocean.
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  7. #23

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    I guess Barry has not seen this thread he would give you an earful about infase CPs. Ever heard of U. inflata in Wahington state. Talk about invasive its chocking all the lakes. If you want an earfull claim its not happening or worth bothering with while he's around.
    you can google U. inflata Washington and you will have tons of site. Many on advice of how to kill it off. I wonder if you got aome from there it you could claim it's location to be Washington State.

  8. #24
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to say that invasive species aren't a problem, I'm just saying they're a problem to humans here and now, and not some huge threat to all life forever. The reason that we think of invasive species as bad is because they disrupt the balance of our environment and eventually make it unlivable for us. Humans rely on having a place to live where we can grow food and take shelter without much disease, predation or pests. When invasive species come and start killing things off, it becomes harder to grow crops, disease-carrying pests start relying on our stores of resources, and disease becomes rampant. That's the nuts and bolts of why it's to our benefit not to introduce species. There's also a moral reason - the Golden Rule, leave things as you found them, etc. Disrupting the environment makes life harder on us, and it makes life harder for the other big fuzzy megafauna that we like to sympathize with, so people endorse conservation. Given that, I don't think anybody with a serious background in ecology is going say, "We shouldn't introduce non-native species because they might become invasive and end all life on Earth." I don't think invoking a doomsday scenario is necessary. There are more immediate, less far-flung reasons to be concerned about invasive species.
    Beyond that, invasions don't spell the end of life in a region. There's usually a change of some sort, which tends to involve a loss of biodiversity. But this only a problem for creatures that need a diverse environment (like humans, crop plants and livestock.) Life, generally speaking, will continue. Many organisms benefit from a lack of diversity; things like diseases, parasites and decomposers. The problem is that we don't like those creatures that do well when an ecosystem is in decline (like mosquitos and rats.) So in many ways, to preserve biodiversity and always call it "good" is to make a value judgement about which types of creatures deserve to have it easier. In nature, progress goes both ways.
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

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