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Spring got off to a late start here in Northern California and when it finally did, we had @ 1 week of typical California spring weather - and everything popped from the Sarracenia species and hybrids - Dionaea and Drosera as well. Roses and citrus trees budding up and beginning to crack - aloes spiked up (they look like a starfish colony), Japanese maples fully leaved out and colored and nepenthes re potted and returned to the cold frame along with some orchids that stayed indoors for the winter.
The local forecast yesterday AM said "A slight chance of a shower, nothing worth measuring". So around 5 pm the sky turns blackish grey, the kind funnel clouds like, (the county next to us had a tornado - small) and it began to rain...hard. The wind picked up, and the temperature dropped....hard - then @ 7, the sky cleared, so what was the worst that could happen?
This morning we woke up to hard frost and 36 degrees, so after a while I went out to survey the "damage" and thankfully have found none! And we've got S. flava and all of it's species, both flowering (some have 7-10 buds and flowers) and pitchers 1' tall now with many coming up with them and no damage - I know sometimes frost damage can be slow to manifest itself, but I would think at this stage, damage would show up immediately, even if in burning small pitchers back -
So tonight, it's supossed to get down to 37 and then pop back up to mid 40's at night, which is typical for here, and I can't cover them, as that would do more damage than the frost itself!
 
Brief cold snaps don't seem to bother them much. So you're right! Tougher than we think!
 
This morning we woke up to hard frost and 36 degrees"

does not compute.."hard frost" and "36 degrees" are mutually exclusive! ;)
it was a hard frost if its 20 degrees at 7am.
but of course the term "hard frost" is very subjective..probably what is considered a "hard frost" for your area is a very light frost for the plants..
they can handle it just fine..never been a problem.

and IMO a light frost doesnt even register on the "tougher than we think" scale..because its not really very tough, as far as the plants are concerned, its actually quite normal and common.

Scot
 
We had a cold spell this winter with -20C on a few days, and two occasions when we didn't thaw out for about 2 weeks... I was taken by surprise (such cold weather is as rare as hen's teeth here), so everything got frozen solid in the mini-greenhouse, meaning I couldn't take anything out for fear that a sudden thaw would turn it to mush/cause botrytis. I only had the one Sarra (a flava) because I have only been growing since mid winter last year (I've bulked up a lot now :awesome: ) but the S. flava took it, anyway. It's coming out of its dormancy now (albeit later than last year), and seems to be fine (although all the VFTs died). I would call that tough! Although, I doubt it matches up to NY winters!
 
Although, I doubt it matches up to NY winters!

We cant leave VFT's or Sarrs outside at all in the winter :(
you say you didnt thaw out for 2 weeks?
we dont thaw out for 4 months..

The northern USA and Canada is the origin of "the fridge method"..
we have to do things that way, because the fridge is much WARMER than outside! ;)

Im surprised you lost VFT's in England! thats quite unusual..
sorry to hear that..

Scot
 
I have vfts and sarrs in my bog garden that got through the winter just fine....although I did have about a foot of dead leaves on top of them as mulch.
 
^_^ Even in the north of England it's about a zone 8 (thank god for the gulf stream!). Without it, we'd probably have winters as bad, or worse, than yours! Although, we don't really have a decent summer here because of the Gulf steam... but then again, that favours Darlingtonia ;). Heh, you picked on my English interest of the weather!

I would have a bog garden too, but I think our dog would just end up peeing in it :-)). It's not worth the effort!

Losing the VFTs was partly due to the fact that I forgot to move the mini greenhouse from the front garden to the back :blush:. We get strong gusts down in the front garden, and the whole thing blew over just before the first cold snap :/ The flava didn't fall out of its pot, but everything else did. . I re-potted everything, but the VFTs weren't in very good shape after re-potting. :headwall: They were only garden centre ones though. The most annoying thing was that all of my seedlings got chucked around, too. Managed to save some Sarracenia ones, but the VFT seedlings went AWOL.
 
The northern USA and Canada is the origin of "the fridge method"..
we have to do things that way, because the fridge is much WARMER than outside! ;)

Scot

While this may be true, the fridge method is most useful to those growing in tropical climates. Most people in very temperate zones seem to put their temperate plants in their basements or breezeways. Why not?

Anyway, how do you know your situation is the origin of the "fridge method?" Is there some documentaion as to who "invented" it?
 
Anyway, how do you know your situation is the origin of the "fridge method?" Is there some documentaion as to who "invented" it?

No, I dont think anyone knows who invented it for sure..
"the fridge method" is probably at least 20 years old..maybe much more..
(I have been visiting on-line CP forums since 1996, and it was well known by then)
Someone probably came up with in the 1960's or 1970's I would guess..I dont know if there were very many CP hobbiests before that..

but when you look at the entire CP hobby, it just seems 95% logical that someone in the northern USA or Canada was the one who invented it..
because where are the primary concentrations of CP hobbiests? North America and Europe..
(yes, other places around the world as well, obviously, but probably North America and Europe contain 90% of VFT and Sarracenia growers).

So who needs the fridge method in those areas?
Not England, not France, not Japan, not South-east Asia, not Australia, not the Southern US..
that only leaves..Northern US and Canada! ;)
so just by the process of elimination, we arrive at the answer..
I could be wrong..but I doubt it! ;)

Scot

---------- Post added at 05:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:30 AM ----------

Just out of curiosity, I used google to search for variations of Refrigerator dormancy..
(you can search by date) Nothing comes up until about the year 2001! which is surprising..
maybe Google cant find everything, but im pretty sure people were talking about it in the mid-90's..
I wonder when it was first mentioned in the ICPS journal? that goes back to the 70's..

Scot
 
  • #10
Actually Scotty, while your winters are much more brutal than ours, plants CAN still become damaged from a sudden temperature dip ( 40 degree drop in one day - we were at 75 and fell to 36 within the space of 6 hours) whether you're in New York or California, especially when they are actively growing - this is from my own observations from being in the nursery business over here for 18+ years. And yes, I've had them growing everywhere in Calif.- from Long Beach, to the mountains up in Northern Ca. and they are tougher than most plants - the plumerias we had outside had to be brought in, as they were burned where the new growth is, and all of the VFT's I had re potted were also burned where all of the OLD growth is, as I check my plants daily.
 
  • #11
Actually Scotty, while your winters are much more brutal than ours, plants CAN still become damaged from a sudden temperature dip ( 40 degree drop in one day - we were at 75 and fell to 36 within the space of 6 hours) whether you're in New York or California, especially when they are actively growing -


maybe..but I highly doubt 36 degrees will do anything to them..
a frost yes, could do some damage to new growth, but not 36 degrees..

We hit 80 yesterday..we will probably hit 35 in a few days..
but I wont even consider moving my plants from the deck..thats "business as usual" for early spring..the plants wont care, wont phase them at all..

Scot
 
  • #12
Yes, but I are your plants out in the open? A direct hit from a hard frost does much more damage than exposure to cold air. Now there seems to be a misunderstanding here - although, my thermometer read 36 degrees, a HARD sugar like coating of ice on the ground denotes a hard frost - my larger groups of Sarracenias with pitcher and flower formation in all stages in the open remained untouched - something I have never experienced in the 20 years of growing carnivores.
 
  • #13
Yes, but I are your plants out in the open? A direct hit from a hard frost does much more damage than exposure to cold air. Now there seems to be a misunderstanding here - although, my thermometer read 36 degrees, a HARD sugar like coating of ice on the ground denotes a hard frost - my larger groups of Sarracenias with pitcher and flower formation in all stages in the open remained untouched - something I have never experienced in the 20 years of growing carnivores.

well..you said 36 degrees..so I was commenting on that.
but its physically impossible to have frost at 36 degrees.
the frost must have formed over night when it was *colder* than 36 degrees..
or..you got some kind of frozen rain or ""graupel" or some flavor of semi-frozen precipitation..which could fall from the sky at 36 degrees..

But thats completely different than "36 degrees", which by itself is completely harmless, and is what I was referring to..

Scot
 
  • #14
That's usually when frost "happens"
 
  • #15
That's usually when frost "happens"

when? at 36 degrees?
no..never..cant happen, its against the laws of physics.

The surface the frost forms on has to be below freezing..because water simply wont freeze above 32 degrees! ;)

So it was either below 32 degrees, for frost to form..
or..IMO from your description, it sounds more likely to me that you simply got some sort of frozen precipatation from the sky..that is totally plausable and happens all the time..
it freezes up high, where its much colder, then falls to the ground where the surface air temp can be above freezing, then it slowly melts..

but for frost..you had to be below 32..cant happen at 36.

Scot
 
  • #16
Let's beat that dead horse! You know I'm not a member of NWS Scotty, so I'm sorry my reports won't carry all the nuances of a seasoned forecaster - however, I posted this for people who were interested in the hardiness of these plants when situations that I had spoke of earlier arise, not to start a nit picking contest over what was experienced at what temperature! And I'm done with this..
 
  • #17
well..I'm sorry you seem to be offended by the laws of physics..I cant help that.
icon-shrug.gif


and its not a "nit picking contest"..its just simple facts.
you were confused by what I was saying..I was confused by what you were saying..
so we worked it out..now we know.

Found your temp data:

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSAC/2011/4/12/MonthlyHistory.html#calendar

(I love that site!) "officially" Carmichael, CA hit 34 degrees on April 8 and 9.
but look at the dew point chart..it shows the dew point, and the temp, intersecting on those two nights, right about 30-32 degrees! and 34 is only the "official" reading, taken somewhere near where you live, but not directly in your back yard! so its totally possible that you were at 32 or lower..and had frost.

the only thing you didnt have was 36 degrees and frost! ;)
so you were right about everything..except the temp..no biggie.

and im still right that 36 degrees, by itself, is harmless to VFTs and Sarracenia.
(my plants spend 4 months at 34-35 every winter)
now its all clear.. :)

and actually, this "nit picking" is very important, in the context of the educational value of this thread..because its important that people understand that it *can* maybe be dangerous to leave your plants outside if its going to fall below 32 degrees..or..if its only as light frost, its probably not that big of a deal in reality. (which was the original point..light frost = not a big deal)..but its perfectly fine to leave them outside at 36, because they wont freeze..that is very important and valuable to know in this hobby..

Personally I make the "cut off" temp in the forecast about 27..(maybe 29)..if the weatherman says 27 or lower, I move the plants into the garage for the night..if he says 30, I leave them out...some people use 32 as the cutoff..some even use 35 or 40..thats all fine..but its important to understand the reasons behind those decisions..and for a big collection, moving plants can be a major undertaking..so having "your number" is something you need to make a decision on..if you have a huge collection, making the cut-off number 40 degrees is a big waste of effort! ;)

Scot
 
  • #18
:cry:Oh noes, 80 to 36:cry: Try 80 to 31 and some snow showers :p

I think it's funny that "tougher than you think" is still applied to carnivorous plants. Yeah maybe tropical plants are a bit sensitive to things like humidity, but north american plants are really hardy. Yeah they require special water and soil, but what other plants can thrive in nutrient free soil? Carnivorous plants are hardy in ways that normal plants aren't and the other way around. It's trading off strengths.

I do agree with Scotty, a light frost won't hurt much, however if you know you might get a frost you should probably cover your plants just incase. Any extra protection, while maybe not 100% nessisary, will help, and increase the chance of a healthy plant.
 
  • #19
^ yeah..I agree its probably better to cover, or move, your plants if its forecast to be below 32 degrees *at all*..just to play it safe..personally, when I see 30 degrees in the forecast, I dont do anything..but thats just a risk im willing to take..and weatherpeople and forecasts arent always spot-on! when they say "overnight low of 30" in reality that could be anywhere between 25 to 35! So I could be risking a much heavier frost or freeze than I anticipated.

So yeah..its a judgment call. For someone just starting out, probably the best advice would be "35 degrees"..if you see 35 in the forecast, move your plants somewhere sheltered..garage, inside the house, etc..35 might be overkill (on the warm side of the true danger zone) but "better safe than sorry"..
its a good number to start with..

Scot
 
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