Tips for big nectar spoons?

[Lucanidae]

So, I received an H. minor "Red" from Ron after the NASC auction. It's producing pitchers close to the size of the ones it came with, but the nectar spoons are TEENY. Like, the size of a teeny ant, as opposed to the size of a small lentil.

Currently it is growing under ~5000 lumens of T5 HO lighting, with ~75%-85% humidity, and with temps as high as 85 degrees Fahrenheit, and as low as 60. It is potted in 100% live sphagnum, in one of those net-like cherry tomato container. Such as:

So, my question is, how do I get those big delicious nectar spoons?

 

[amphirion]

You're doing everything right, only thing I would say is drop the temps lower to the fifties. Nectar spoons are a sign of maturity as larger, established plants will produce these spoons on a consistent basis. Since yours is a division, it might take a year before you get those nice spoons.

 

[thez_yo]

They will take all the light you can give them plus five, so as long as you can keep the temps down, irradiate them! It helps them develop really nice nectar spoons

 

[BigBella]

It's all about insufficient light. Most successful growers of Heliamphora maximize on the lighting. Perhaps moving the plant closer to the element would help . . .

 

[swords]

I've not grown any Heliamphora species yet, so feel free to slap me all you like but I think it may need higher humidity than that. Nepenthes make tiny lids if they hit a dry spell when inflating their pitchers and wind up looking slightly retarded in their top pitcher growth and they get the "Little Lid Syndrome" - I'm guessing the "Little Spoon Syndrome" may be the same. If you could boost your humidity 10% more you might get over that hump.

 

[carnivoure12]

When I divided my H. minor it reverted back to less developed pitcher, some even went back to immature pitchers. Just keep giving it good light and eventually, it'll make them again.

The humidity is fine, they don't really need high humidity.

 

[Lucanidae]

Thanks everyone, such fast responses!

Is there any possibility that these little nectar spoons could be due to a repot? Both pitchers were developing when I received them. Sometimes with my neps, developing pitchers get that little lid syndrome if I've repotted the plant early in their development. Different types of plants though, so it's just a guess.

 

[UnstuckinTime]

Is there any possibility that these little nectar spoons could be due to a repot? Both pitchers were developing when I received them. Sometimes with my neps, developing pitchers get that little lid syndrome if I've repotted the plant early in their development. Different types of plants though, so it's just a guess.

I would say that it probably does. I just got a little H. minor in the mail a few weeks ago, it had one adult pitcher and is now making another, but i can already tell that it will have almost no nectar spoon on it what so ever.

 

[dashman]

This has already been weighed in on by some of the best heli growers out there so I really don't need to post my feeble observations.... but I will anyways.

I agree with the lighting train of thought. In my observations (and advice given to me) while growing heliamphora, the nectar spoon, color, and even pitcher shape is dependant on the amount of light it receives during formation.

Here is a good comparison between a pitcher formed during less light (background) in relation to a pitcher formed with increased lighting (foreground)... Of course other things play a factor like humidity, but in my example, the only thing that changed was lighting.

This is obviously the same plant. The foreground pitcher was the latest pitcher and the background pitcher was the previous one formed just prior on another growth point.

You may want to watch temps as well. 85 degrees is too hot from what I have read.

 

[UnstuckinTime]

Dashman, that is an absolutely stunning heliamphora!

 

[dashman]

Thank you. It's nothing compared to some of the other growers here. Before and after results like that last pitcher is why I agree with Bella that lighting makes a world of difference. I made the change to my lighting after mobile made a few recommendations, among others. So I gotta give him a little credit.

 

[Av8tor1]

It has been my experience that some Akopan based clone lines sort of have a mind of their own when it comes to nectar spoon size/shape. They will occasionally cycle back and forth from producing tiny spoons for a while then more normal looking spoons. The freqency of this back and forth cycle seems inversely proportional to the division's age and maturity.

If you've got good color, growth and pitcher form your lighting is probably adaquate.

Caveat, 85f is way too hot IMHO. While it's true helis can survive at that temp, failure is much more likely above 78f

 

[BigBella]

I have to agree with Butch -- upon rereading that first entry -- that heat also plays a negative role. Some hybrids can take higher temperature but not for too long . . .

 

[Av8tor1]

From another thread on the subject.... "Heli Sudden Death Syndrome"
In my early days of growing helis, this was a major problem for me.

just a copy and paste from another forum for future ref...

Hello,

This Heliamphora disease is caused by a phytopathogenic fungus (which I was able to identify during my molecular studies of Heliamphora by chance), which infects the vascular tissue of the centre of the plant, and can kill a healthy plant within a few days by browning heart disease/ wilt disease. This fungus lives within the tissue of a plant as an endophyte in its asuexual phase (even in wild populations of Heliamphora as it seems), and normally does not harm the plant. However, providing the perfect conditions for the fungus to propagate (which are unfortunately exactly those conditions which will make Heliamphora suffer much, and thus get an easy host for mass infection by the fungus), i.e. prolonged warm temperatures above 28°C and high humidity, the fugus hyphae start growing rapidly, filling all vascular bundels of the plant host's heart (you will recognized dark brown collapsed bundels in the centre of the plant, filled with hyphae under a microscope). The roots and leaves are still looking healthy at this stage, but the plant heart is already dead. It's very characteristic for this wilting disease that the leaves and roots are dying/rotting from the centre to the tip! This means that the tips of the leaves are still fresh and green, whereas the base is already brown and rotting.

I made some infection and growth experiments with this fungus at university in a heated chamber. This fungus can kill a healthy Heliamphora plant at 28°C and high humidity in less than 10 days after infection! On the dying plant parts in the centre of the plant, hundereds of little conidia (asexual spores) are formed for propagation by air and especially water droplets. Interestingly, this fungus is not growing well on artificial growth media, and I did not find any chemical treatment to stop it's growth yet. But I'm still working on this subject, and will keep you updated.

BTW, a related species of fungus is causing almost the same disease in Darlingtonia!

I cannot recommend any cure for infected plants so far (usually the "terminal" stage of this disease is leading to loss of the infected plant, but sometimes regrowth occurs from lateral buds, if growth conditions are changed at once), only preventation:
Cool temperatures (especially during summer heat waves!) seem to be essential, especially cool root temperatures! Spores of this fungus seem to be around everywhere (airborne?), and experienced Heliamphora growers told me that they never had any problems with this wilting disease indoors, when using pure water (not rainwater). This might be due to optimal growing conditions as well.

I only had this problem with Heliamphora grown outdoors or in my greenhouse so far.

All the best,

Andreas
(Andreas Fleischmann)


In some of Wistuba's writings he mentions the temp of 77f as being the threshold...

Personally, I have found a cocktail of Trichoderma atrovirde and Trichoderma virens to be an effective preventative but YMMV. However, once the condition has taken hold there is not much can be done. I have saved a few by digging them up, cutting away all infected material, soaking in trichoderma bath, repotting in new substrate.

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 PM ----------

In-situ pic showing an example of what appears to be this natural cycle of H. minor
http://www.wistuba.com/images/dsc3158_579.jpg

 

[Lucanidae]

Thanks everyone! I'm going to try to push that temperature down, and just picked up another t5 HO fixture.
Also realized that my thermometer is way close to the lights, going to see what the temperature is closer to Mr. Heliamphora.
I'll let y'all know how that goes!

 

[RL7836]

Currently it is growing under ~5000 lumens of T5 HO lighting, ....

You've already received excellent advice from a bunch of experienced growers....

The one thing that you didn't mention (& most people don't) is the distance to the lights. While people generally grasp that light intensity gets stronger as the plant is placed closer to the lights - light intensity varies by an inverse square rule - so a small change in distance makes a large change in how much light the plant receives.

Butch has his plants under a multi-lamp T-5 HO setup with mirror reflectors (putting out approximately a gazillion lumens) and (iirc) many of his plants are inches from the lights ...

I'm not recommending that you move your plant 1" away from the lights but just understand that poor nectar spoon development can be an indication of low light intensity ---- and distance matters --- alot ...

 

[dashman]

Very good point Ron.

I failed to mention that my increase in lighting came from mostly that. I did reposition a CFL that I had pointing at another area, but I also moved my plants closer to the lights by placing upside down pots and water dishes below the heliamphora pots. I couldn't move the lights because I have large nepenthes that are already close to the lights, so I brought the heliamphora closer to them.

Again, as you can see from my previous picture this is very recent knowledge I have obtained. Don't mistake me for the real deal heliamphora expert like BB, Av, and Ron who have many years of experience. I'm just grasshopper sharing the fruits of my recently obtained wisdom.

 

[mobile]

You probably have all the advise that you need in this topic, so I won't repeat. I am interested in knowing if H. Minor "Red" shows significantly more red colouration than a standard H. minor, though. In my experience, the standard clone has the capability of taking on red colouration, given high enough light levels, so does the "Red" clone get redder?

 

[BigBella]

You probably have all the advise that you need in this topic, so I won't repeat. I am interested in knowing if H. Minor "Red" shows significantly more red colouration than a standard H. minor, though. In my experience, the standard clone has the capability of taking on red colouration, given high enough light levels, so does the "Red" clone get redder?

The "red" is marginally darker than some clones or seed-grown H. minor I have; but it is still young and not terribly distinctive just yet . . .