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Thread: Yet another ban attempt

  1. #9
    carnivorous plants of the world -- unite! DragonsEye's Avatar
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    I am unable to agree with you folks on many points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dexenthes View Post
    On the one hand I can understand limiting the ownership of highly venomous snakes to individuals who have proven they are knowledgeable enough to carry a permit which would certify that they are in full capability and understanding of the animals they are owning, ...?
    And who is to determine who is qualified or even what exactly is "highly" venomous? Who is going to determine those standards? The gov't and its agencies sure don't have the intelligence to do so wisely. They can't even handle plant imports correctly much of the time.

    And I won't even go into how the gov't continually screws up education with their arrogant ignorance as an additional example.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brokken View Post
    IMHO, people should not be keeping venomous snakes or reptiles that could escape and naturalize in native territory.
    For what reason do you single out venomous snakes and reptiles Brokken? If you are concerned about naturalization, you should be FAR more worried about the rats, cats, and dogs that people have introduced. Those 3 animals have done and continue to do incredible damage to ecosystems. And yet no one see fit to say anything about THEM.

    If you are worried about safety, then once again your concern is highly misplaced. In the US, on average

    Human Deaths Caused By Animals

    Animal Type Per Year

    Horses 219

    Dogs 14

    Venomous snakes 5

    Reticulated pythons 0.3

    Burmese pythons 0.1

    Other pythons 0.0

    Boa constrictors 0.0

    Other boas 0.0

    Per the CDC, there are over 4.7 million dog bites a year (nearly 2% of the U.S. population); 800,000 of them serious enough to require hospitalization

    You are MUCH more likely to be killed by a dog or horse -- are you in favor of banning them as well? It would be hypocritical not to. And there is no permit required to prove you are knowledgable enough to own either one. In addition, and I do wish I had the source on hand, the majority of venomous snake bites in the US are the result of drunken idiots trying to show off.



    Quote Originally Posted by Physalaemus View Post
    My only beef with the various rounds of boa / python bans in the past is that they did not discriminate between species that are actually having economic impacts and species that do not.
    This is still by and large the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Physalaemus View Post
    Banning the sale and breeding of Burmese pythons/Reticulated pythons in zones 6 and higher is necessary. These species cause billions of dollars in damage to ecologically sensitive areas.
    Once again I disagree. Cats and dogs are an even bigger threat on a country scale to local ecologies and yet we do not ban the sale or breeding of them.

    Btw do you have a source for the "billions of dollars in damage"? (Not being snide ... I honestly would like to see it.)

    Furthermore this ecological damage is NOTHING compared to the damage humans do to delicate ecologies. The Everglades is a perfect example. Each year the strain of human water consumption on the glades increases. This is far more dangerous to that ecology than even the large pythons. Yet a blind eye is constantly turned upon that problem. It's like worrying about the leak in your roof while the flood waters are already washing your house away.


    Quote Originally Posted by Physalaemus View Post
    The industry has had 50 years to self-regulate and it has not.
    Humanity has had eons to learn to self regulate and it has not. Do you think the gov't should step in there too? And the damage of humans on ecosystems far out strips the damage any other organism does.

    For that matter, what regulation has the agricultural industry done to prevent the growing and sale of invasive plant species which DO incredible amounts of damage to ecosystems? Next to none -- and this industry has had a lot more than 50yrs to do so..

    How about the regulation of cats & dogs? Again, a lot more than 50 yrs to do so and they are a more widespread threat than large boas/pythons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Physalaemus View Post
    Whatever happened to the proposed law that any store selling reptiles had to have adult representatives of the species in the store to show Junior's parents?
    Probably the same thing that happens to the idea of properly education people about cat, dogs, frogs, plants .....

    There are plenty of people who keep venomous snakes and large reptiles with no problem at all. "Well what about those who don't?" There are people who do not properly keep their dogs either -- so based on that logic -- should dogs be banned as well?
    "Blessed are the cracked….
    For they are the ones who let in the light."



  2. #10
    Confused Magikarp fdfederation's Avatar
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    What would Native American Nations want?

  3. #11
    Peatmoss's Avatar
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    I believe that a bite from most any venomous snake is far more likely to kill someone than a bite from a dog is. There are just far fewer opportunities to be bitten by venomous snakes then there are to be bitten by a dog. If everybody had Gabon vipers instead of dogs there would probably be equivalent numbers of bites.

    I do know some peeps who choose to keep venomous snakes responsibly and law abidingly (with permits from their respective states) and I would hate to see their collections taken away. I believe that naturalization is a minor issue compared to other environmental stresses but it is probably still a legitimate cause for concern with some species. Not necessarily all boas/pythons but at least some colubrids like BTS.

    I think that in any case where there is a threat to human health/life the government should be somewhat involved in deciding who can keep this animal and who can't or at least maintain a national registry of people who are keeping them. I know that most people will just go about their business and not get a permit or declare that they own the animals but anyone who has legitimate care for their collection of whatever they decide to keep, should be the ones who abide to the law.

    If the big names in the reptile industry lead with good examples, the rest will follow. Requiring that purchasers have proof of where they live and proof of a permit would make a huge difference in the number of escaped/released animals.

    If regulating the trade in these species is what it takes to prevent more ecological damage to the environment and threat to "innocents" (those not involved in the keeping of the animals, a person who owns venomous snakes can get bitten and die but if one of his animals escapes and bites the next door neighbours' kid, that is a true issue). Then steps should be taken to regulate who exactly owns these species.

    Note that I have avoided using the word "ban", most of these laws rely to heavily on banning species and not just regulating who owns them.

    Also, for those interested in the history of the reptile industry. If you have not read "the lizard king" and "stolen world" you should. Both very good books on large reptile companies that engaged in smuggling of endangered species, an ecological sin as great as the naturalized species in the southern US. Nothing to do with these issues but they can provide good perspective for the issues that are facing the reptile industry/hobby today.

    Sorry for the long post and excuse any grammatical or spelling errors. I just think that if reptile owners get really involved in local and national politics they can make a difference in how the system works.

    Gabriel

  4. #12
    Cichvette's Avatar
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    Here’re some actual cost figures. The national annual cost associated with dealing with all invasive species (not just snakes) in the US is estimated at $120 billion:

    http://www.fws.gov/home/feature/2012...sFactSheet.pdf

    In South Florida, the approach to controlling the spread of the various constrictors has been one of low cost. Microchips and ownership permits are required for certain species. Permits are also offered to allow hunters to track and kill the snakes in the wild for their meat and skin. Frankly, these steps do little to slow the snakes’ spread. The frigidly cold winter (relatively speaking) of 2010 was actually more effective at reducing the snakes’ population than any other method of control so far.

    As far as environmental impact, there has been a noticeable inverse correlation in the number of native South Florida species when compared to the invasive snake population. Most critical are the several species of endangered animals that are on the brink of extinction due in large part to these snakes. These large apex predators have no natural enemies (excluding man) and they can consume/kill prey as large as deer and alligators. The human toll is minimal at this point but we are still early in the spread of these species. It is not hard to imagine these snakes moving out of the swamps and into the populated coastal areas of Florida. When this starts to happen, more injuries and deaths will most certainly occur. And, of course, the capture/containment costs will also increase along with public outcries.

    Snakes are not the only invasive species prized by collectors that are wreaking havoc in Florida. Iguanas are decimating some small animal populations while lion fish are destroying our reefs by consuming massive numbers of small fish. There is now a marketing campaign to turn lion fish into a delicacy so that human demand will hopefully help control the population. Some restaurants have even added lion fish to the menu.

    Though I don’t dispute (I have not researched the actual numbers one way or the other) that the number of the deaths attributable to the more common pets such as dogs and horses is higher than to snakes, this in no way suggests that keeping these animals is more dangerous to the environment or the general population. Horses, for example, do not threaten the human population overall, nor are they invasive. Death by horse is almost exclusively an issue for people that own or ride the horses. We don’t have wild horse populations that are breeding unabated and invading urban areas.

    Alright, as I step off of my soapbox, let me just add that I strongly believe that responsible people should be able to keep many of these more exotic and potentially damaging species. The problem is: how do we prevent the irresponsible people from getting them? Until this question is answered, I would rather err on the side of caution.

  5. #13
    IronTom's Avatar
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    While we're talking about it... The average house cat is another high-end predator. Cats are one of the few species that kill for fun. While there were native cat species in North America, they have become pretty much extinct. Nobody ever raises much fuss about them since they help control the introduced rat populations that also follow human habitation around the globe.

    Why stop there? What about the fees involved in trying to control Kudzu as it not so slowly takes over the south? Devouring houses and electrical lines. The water hyacinth choking out waterways. I would like to plant some bamboo in the yard, but I'm also smart enough to know that I can't give it a proper enclosure to stop it from running amok.

    I will agree that it would be nice to see some regulations for exotics, but it won't happen. Look at all the trouble members of the NRA have to go through to keep something that is in the constitution! If we want to keep exotics, we have to throw money at capitol hill by the wheel barrow full... Put our money where our mouth is, so to speak.

  6. #14
    cody's Avatar
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    and how many of these invasive species were introduced by the govt to control invasive species introduced by the government? while i agree florida is full of problem species, especially snakes. i don't know as boas are a problem in illinois. wild pigs maybe. why isn't there a national ban or liscensing required to keep pigs? they can revert to completely feral, with tusks in three generations.
    So many plants...so little time

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  7. #15
    hcarlton's Avatar
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    In cooler climates like Illinois, the banning of reptiles is hardly an educated thing. these creatures do not have the ability to survive in the climate, especialy during winter. While, yes, in Florida, many reptile species are becoming a problem in the ecosystem, it is generally not because they are escaping from the well-to-do breeders and pet owners who know what they're doing, but those uneducated persons who think that this baby snake looks pretty whern young, then suddenyl realize that at only 3 years of age, are far too large and expensive for them to keep. It is these people who irresponsibly release their pets in the wild and this is where the massive animal problems come in. At my school we have an 11, near 12 foot Burmese python who everyone knows is capable of causing great damage if he got loose justi n the building, but we are well educated enough to know that not only do we have the equipment necessary to keep him contained, but the know-how to deal with him should he get out.
    On another note, you are probably not more likely to die from a venemous snake bit than a dog bite, at east here in the US. More often than not, a snake will not inject enough venom to kill you. Hospitalize, maybe, but I have been bitten deep enough by a small dog to have it go a good inch into my arm, and our neighbor has recently had problems with maulings from an animal on the loose in our neighborhood. people who do own venemous snakes will most of hte time have the permits and know-how to keep them, and those that don't eventually get found out. however, altogether these people number relatively few and far between. nearly every house, however, has either a dog or cat or more than one, and they are far more a problem species than any reptile has. Why is this? Because dogs and cats are univeralyy seen as cute and lovable, reptiles are not. so more hate and anger comes down on the "ugly" animal than the more destrucitve cute animal. i've had plenty of personal experience with owning both the cute and the hated, and seeing the reactions to both.
    Everything has a reason, whether big or small. Never underestimate the power of what is or is not.
    There is far more to everything than meets the eye.
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  8. #16
    SMcKenzie's Avatar
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    I'm going to weigh in on this, since I have bred and owned various herps, both native and exotic, for nearly 50 years now, and that includes venomous and large Boids. I have also been very involved in breeding, showing, working and hunting dogs for just as long, and that includes American Pit Bull Terriers(the real ones, not the generic mongrels that often are referred to as "pit bulls" by the media and most everyone else).

    We have to consider the source of all this legislation, all these bans and restrictions and whatnot, and that is the powerful and well-funded, well-organized Animal Rights movement, spearheaded by the Humane Society of the United States, the ASPCA and PETA. If you think these groups exist to save abused animals, think again. HSUS, the richest of the lot, with an annual "take" of over 200 MILLION dollars in donations, operates ZERO animal shelters, kills nearly every animal it "rescues", and is opposed to any and all breeding of any animal, for any reason. Their goal is to achieve a world in which animal use by humans is non-existent, and yet, they are all too willing to use deception to make you think that they are an "umbrella" organization that funds local animal shelters and rescues that save and find new homes for all those sad-eyed puppies and kitten in their commercials on tv. HSUS and all these other groups are adamantly opposed to the ownership and breeding of any and all reptiles. Banning large constrictors, or venomous, or even implementing a "permit" system is just a way of getting their foot in the proverbial door to achieving all-out bans, which is what they want to achieve, and anyone who actually believes that they will settle for bans only on certain species or for permits is being delusional. You do not know these groups very well, and have not spent time fighting them and researching them as I have. There is no satisfying them, not as long as humans still keep animals. Supporting a ban on any animals when you still own animals yourself is like throwing everyone else to a giant dragon, hoping it will eat you last, but the point is, it WILL eventually eat you!

    Much of the hype about the damage to the environment and the risk of most of these reptiles establishing viable breeding populations anywhere in the US outside of south Florida is just that-hype. There have been many scientific and peer-reviewed studies which have proven that Burmese Pythons, Retics, etc. CANNOT survive and breed outside of the environment of southern Florida and are therefore no risk outside of that area. Florida has already taken measures to curtail the Burm population, so the Federal ban on the trade in the species in the other continental states was unnecessary and was simply capitulation to the AR groups in their continuing effort to utterly destroy the entire reptile industry. There is also considerable evidence that the Burm population in the Everglades is not so much due to "irresponsible owners" dumping unwanted pets, but to animals that escaped a breeding facility during Hurricane Andrew, a natural disaster, but the AR's can't go after natural disasters, can they?
    The most detrimental threat to animal ownership, and the biggest boost to groups like HSUS and PETA, though, isn't money from well-meaning donations, but people who either believe that these bans will never affect them and their animals, or who think it's OK to ban/restrict OTHER people's animals, the ones they personally would not keep themselves. The AR's are winning, achieving not only bans on reptiles and other "exotic" animals, but they ARE implementing bans on breeding dogs and cats right and left, though Breed-Specific Legislation, through mandatory spay-neuter laws, through breeder "permits" that no one can get or comply with, though limits on how many pets you can own, period, regardless of species. As animal owners, if we don't all wake up to this and realize it's NOT about "the other guys and their animals", but that these groups are targeting ALL animals, from aquarium fish to livestock, there will be a day when some of you will live in a country where animal ownership is outlawed and where everyone is forced into a vegan lifestyle because there will be no other choices. I might not live long enough to see this, but many of you will, if things don't turn around soon. The AR groups are unified in what they want, if not exactly on how to achieve it, but we, as animal owners, are fragmented and divided and still all-too willing to throw each other under the proverbial bus. Too many of us still have that, "it's OK to ban THOSE animals, as long as you don't come after MINE" attitude, and that is why so many laws are being passed all over the country, at every level, that take away our RIGHT(yes, animals are property under the law, and as such, their ownership is guaranteed by the Constitution) to own animals, and we are allowing this to happen! It's not just about reptiles, or dogs, or horses, or cattle; it's about ALL animals, and we need to all realize that and realize that any victory for the HSUS and other AR groups is a defeat for all of US who keep, breed, sell, trade animals of any sort. You might not like large constrictors and would never want to own one, but when the USFW implemented their Rule Change to include four constrictor species in the Lacey Act, you lost, too, because that put those groups who want to eventually take away YOUR animals that much closer to doing so. Trust me, they will not be satisfied or placated.

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