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Thread: Stop it!

  1. #17

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    Quote (cephalotus88 @ Oct. 13 2002,01:06)
    Hmmm..in Reptiles and a few sites, they state people will often collect LEGALLY one or two wild animals to add a fresh blood line for thier breed stock.[/QUOTE]
    Yup, but you need to get a licence and the amount you take is moniterd. It's like a deer hunting licence but it's for collecting the animal not killing it. This way they can make sure the population isn't depleated like it was with the eastern box turtle in the 70's. Did you know they attually had to take domectic ones and reestablish the population because people wiped them out so fast? What happend is pet stores would pay like $5 a piece so local kids would collect as many as they could. BOOM! No turtles left to make baby turtles. Same problem with over er eating the green iguana. They had to restock the wilds and then give the natives little igguana farms [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] So, as you can see, their are needs for laws on collecting because when everone is alloud to, they do [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif[/img]
    There is no item greater in value than life, for without life value would cease to exist.
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  2. #18

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    Exactly. Thats what herping is about. Enjoying and making sure your license is valid [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]. Keep on truckin-Zach
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  3. #19
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Quote (Darcie @ Oct. 14 2002,11:18)
    1) If you have like huge mega habitates with all this stuff tossed about things get differnt very quickly.

    2) I am a little surprised a long time Herp owner hasn't herd of iodine baths! It's more for the human then the animal, but it is a pritty standard treatment to keep bacteria levels on reptile skin from going crazy.

    3) Also, The UV light is for herps that don't get natural sun, you have lots of natral sun you don't need a UV light but it's a good precaution.

    4) Finally, Vitimin suplements are most importent when the animal is a baby and growing. Many individuals will do fine without them but for the magority that don't, well they die or are horibbly disfigured from it. Life span for most spiecies can not yet be accuratly judged because the idea of supliments is fairly new and we just don't have old enough animals yet to know how big a differnce it will make. Heck, 4 years was good for an inguan 20 years ago, now the predicted life span is more like 20 years.

    5) P.S. (domestic box turtles and wild box turtles aren't the same thing,lol)[/QUOTE]
    Please allow me to reply [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]

    1) 10G, 20G, 30G and 55G terrariums do not count as "huge mega habitats" IMHO. All my systems are of that size but they are dynamic; real earth, rocks, bark, plants, etc. They are almost close cycle and they are more clean than your typical newspaper set-up. They take a lot of work to get there but they are worth it after the fact.

    2) Don't be suprised. Soaking can actually be dangerous because it can lead to fungal infections of the skin. It really doesn't take that high a humidity level to assist in shedding, simply pouring a couple cups of warm water into the media when your herp is close to shedding actually does more than enough. And as far as bacteria go, there are very few reptile pathogens that can infect humans, the main one is Salmonella and the best way to control it is to wash your hands.

    3) I never said that UV wasn't important only that you do not have to pay huge amounts of money for specialty bulbs when you can get the exact same results with any old sunlight bulb. And I would never recommend trying to light a herp cage with sunligh unless you are trying to bar-b-q your herp

    4) Feeding a well balanced diet and gut loading can eliminate the need for supliments. Think about it, how many herps go out and eat calcium/Vit D powder in the wild? And life spans can be judged, ask Audobon.

    5) You never clarified that fact. You simply stated that it was wrong to keep box turtles.

    The point I was trying to get across is that the best thing to do is to do your own research and not just take what someone else tells you as gospel. What works for you might not work for someone else and what works for them might not work for you. You have to find what works for you and I can guarantee that it is not going to be something someone else told you.
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  4. #20
    Send in the Clones Houstonherp's Avatar
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    Quote (Dyflam @ Oct. 12 2002,8:17)
    Quote (Joachim @ Oct. 12 2002,02:58)
    Just out of curiosity. Do breed animals deserve other?

    Joachim[/QUOTE]
    Huh? [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
    I'm kind of at a loss as to what this means as well, but if I take it correctly, you are questioning whether breeder animals deserve to be in captivity as well?...I'll take it as such.

    In MY humble opinion, that depends on your viewpoint about the human/animal relationship in general. If you agree with having a (captive born) dog as a pet, I see no reason why you should have any problem with a (captive Born) reptile as a pet. Your pet dog is not allowed to roam free (or at least it shouldn't be, if you are truly caring for the animal as your pet), and neither should your pet reptile roam free.

    A very well known herpetoculturist (Phillippe des Vosjoli) wrote a series of articles for The Vivarium Magazine many years back, asking how you could gauge if reptiles were "happy" in a captive setting. Although I don't remember the entire artivle series, he based his findings on 1), the highly instinctive nature of reptiles, and 2), their general health. He surmised that captive reptiles were "happy" if they fulfilled all of their usual functions of their wild counterparts while in captivity. These functions would include survival, obtaining food, growth, maintaining general body health, movement and - most importantly - producing offspring. These factors had to be studied at length in order to determine what it takes to keep each species of reptile in the correct manner to have them produce a new generation, and in many cases it is not as easy as sticking a snake in a plastic shoe box for its entire life!

    To sum up, the decision about whether reptiles should be kept as pets is no different than keeping any other animal as a pet. It's a personal decision for everyone. My point was that you get healthier, less stressed and less parasite-infested reptiles when buying captive born instead of wild-caught, and you don't deplete the wild population in the process. In my mind this is a win-win situation.
    Mike Howlett

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  5. #21

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    Quote (Houstonherp @ Oct. 11 2002,05:16)
    It's not fair to take an animal from the wild and put it in a cage for the rest of its life. How would anyone feel if they were stuck in their bedroom for the rest of THEIR life? No TV, radio, books, just a bed.[/QUOTE]
    Mike,

    I did correct my initial post already few days ago, but it seems it is still not clear. I see no reason at all, why the argument quoted from your post doesn't also apply to breed animals. Or is it fair to put a breed animal "in a cage for the rest of its life"? - I don't want to offend you here, but I can't get the logic behind this argument.

    I am not in a position to critcise anyone owning an animal at all - still eating meat (from animals which are kept under horrible conditions quite often). But I am strongly against keeping any animal in totally inadequate conditions like too small cages,etc. - independent of their origin and their destination!

    Joachim

  6. #22
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    I have to disagree with this statement:

    Quote
    In MY humble opinion, that depends on your viewpoint about the human/animal relationship in general. If you agree with having a (captive born) dog as a pet, I see no reason why you should have any problem with a (captive Born) reptile as a pet. Your pet dog is not allowed to roam free (or at least it shouldn't be, if you are truly caring for the animal as your pet), and neither should your pet reptile roam free.
    [/QUOTE]

    I do not believe it is possible to compare domesticated animals, dogs, cats, livestock, etc. to nondomesticated animals. No breed of domestic dog today is taken from the wild, in fact the average domestic animal no longer has the instincts to survive in a wild state. The dumping of domestic animals almost always leads to their death by starvation or disease. It is kinder to take unwanted pets to a Humane Society to be adopted out or put to sleep than to drop them in the woods.

    This is not the case with most 'wild' pets, even those from a pet store. If placed back in the correct environmental setting 'wild' even captive born animals can still survive.

    Cheers

  7. #23

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    Okay #1, gut loading IS supplimenting, lol. #2, Wild animals get food that had a better diet. A cricket eating oatmeal and cardboard is not anywhare nere as healthy a food sorce as one eating a virety of plants and fruits. Also, wild herps live off a larger viriety of animals in the wild. That said, I move on.

    Salmonilla(sp?) can be helped by washing your hands but that doesn't really cover all the issues with it in the average home. I personally have never needed to soak any any herps, but anyone with kids, other animals or a reptile having trouble sheding does.

    Also, Simi-aquatic lizards really do need these treatments and trudles need them even more as they spend most of the day in the water where pathogens can build up fast in a closed environment. The Iodine prevents infection (from fungi or even a boom of salmonella in their skin).

    Now, I am not surtain what creatures you grow, but very few reptiles can live in a so called nerely compleat terrarium. I know that some small tropical arboral spiecies can do well (or best), but anything that is semi-aquatic will get infections and so will ground dwellers because pathogenic organisms can build up to deadly levels so fast. In general, I would asume by your tank sizes you speak of geko, and anole? They do good in that sort of set up [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] I wouldn't put a boa, turtle, iguana or dessert critter in such a state though. Remember, we can not recreate the wild, we can not even come close, but we can create an alternitive environment thats just as good for the animal and hopefully better!

    I thought I said wild Boxturtles on this thred but it must have been another. Sorry about that.

    On the topic of wild capture. How the animal is treated is everything when it comes to stock collection. I'm a bit of an oddball in that I feel it is all or nothing in the domestication process. You eather leave an animal 100% wild or you treat it like a pet and don't reproduce it's environment but recreate it. This tends to be much much better for the animals happyness. Really, a wild pair needs to be handled carefully and personally I take them on till they bred and then release, but sometimes that isn't doable so people just have to do the best they can. Remember, domesticating reptiles also helps us to save the wild ones from extinction in many many cases
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