Nepenthes Seeds and eBay.

[Dexenthes]

This is kind of a heated topic here in the carnivorous plant enthusiast world. We all have our own opinions and beliefs, and I'd be interested to start a reasonable discussion about this.

Must of us that grow Nepenthes might be familiar with trolling eBay for good prices on some of our favorite rare plants.

In conjunction with cuttings, basals or other seed-grown plants that other enthusiasts have grown, there are a number of listings for Nepenthes seeds. There are the obvious and incessant listings that are always there, sort of fantastical prices on fantastic species that have very low if any germination rate. But lately there has been a pretty consistent string of seemingly legitimate listings from a certain someone who lives in Southeast Asia and claims to have freshly obtained seeds of a variety of rare and intriguing species.

This is where the heart of the debate rises.

I personally think that taking these ripe and fertile seed pods of the species or hybrids that we love from their natural environment is (in this situation) totally wrong.

By selling these seeds on eBay for relatively low prices, to anyone who might "buy it now", there is no guarantee that the seeds will fall into "the right hands" - AKA, someone who actually knows how to get the highest germination rate out of the seeds that is possible. More importantly, however, is that aside from the uncertain future the seeds face once listed on eBay, they have been taking from their natural environment, the one place that, all human activity aside, is one of the only places that can ultimately sustain the species existence without the use of electricity, the requirement of greenhouses, or any other sophisticated and technologically based growing tools we would need to grow these plants to maturity.

The argument for the selling of the seeds is that we should scoop up these seeds as soon as possible and start growing them because we cannot trust that their natural environment not be destroyed by our activities.*

* I say we as in Homo sapiens, the species we all are a part of, whether poor Sumatran land-owners who need food, or middle-class United State plant enthusiasts.

I'll wrap things up with a few of my own personal beliefs regarding this subject:

1.) Any seeds taken from these plant's natural environments should be given only to professional Nepenthes growers who have proven their ability to germinate the seeds to their fullest potential. (This does not involve eBay listings)

2.) As much energy that any of us put into buying seeds that have been taken from their environment we should also be putting towards preserving that environment. (This does not involve eBay listings)

3.) We should not as a species just be "giving up" on these most diverse and fertile regions of the world because "we'll probably just end up destroying them anyway." This line of thought makes me cringe, and makes me totally shamed to be a member of the same species that could think this thought.

I do not want to start arguments, but I would like to hear some thoughtful discussion on this subject, so please give your two cents on this topic - it's of great interest to many of us here, perhaps all of us who frequent this sub-forum and I'd be interested to hear how my fellow enthusiasts think about this.

[Exo]

I personally feel that taking a small amount of seeds from the wild is a good investment, since habitat destruction WILL eventually wipe most of these species out, and there really isn't much that the western world can do about it. The local govenments really couldn't care less, and I estimate that in 50 years, none of these habitats will even exist, and neither will the plants that live in them.

Having too much faith and "hoping for the best" will damn these Nepenthes to extinction almost as much as the people cutting down their habitats will.


Unless someone knows a way to make mankind less greedy......even Jesus couldn't pull that one off, so good luck.

[MH1]

I was looking through eBay today, and thought exactly the same thing! Although, I don't think anyone should be entitled to that seed, because the more people buy the seed, the more the person is rewarded for poaching it. If there is any seed collection to be done, it should only be taken in small quantities by nurseries who have the legal documentation to do so. They should then grow these seeds into plants, pollinate them, and pass them on to other nurseries. It may be a slow way of circulating plants, but I would much prefer for things to be 'rare' than 'extinct'. More emphasis could be put on pollinating plants of the same species, so that if the plant is wiped out, there is a good amount of genetically different plants floating around to replant, thus saving a species. Just my view. In summary: more seed grown plants! Our need to own these plants 'NOW' can be damaging, and I think that for the sake of the plants we love so much, we must try and restrain this instinct (however difficult), because who would be more devastated by the loss of these plants, than us?

[Dexenthes]

there really isn't much that the western world can do about it.

The problem is, as the consumers of the majority of the world's resource and the global proprietor of capitalism, there is actually nothing that we haven't done about it.

It's our economic philosophies that have rocketed these burgeoning Southeast Asian countries into adopting destructive and capitalistic motives regarding their forests. (Can we say palm oil?)

As MH1 said, the more we give the green light to these poachers, the more we give the green light to the exploitation of this land.

"Hey, Sumatran poachers! Just send us all the Nep seed before your plow it over with bulldozers, okay? Thanks! "

[Exo]

The problem is, as the consumers of the majority of the world's resource and the global proprietor of capitalism, there is actually nothing that we haven't done about it.

It's our economic philosophies that have rocketed these burgeoning Southeast Asian countries into adopting destructive and capitalistic motives regarding their forests. (Can we say palm oil?)

As MH1 said, the more we give the green light to these poachers, the more we give the green light to the exploitation of this land.

"Hey, Sumatran poachers! Just send us all the Nep seed before your plow it over with bulldozers, okay? Thanks! "

Most of the world's palm oil is used in Asian countries, not western ones....for example, in India they use it for everything from cooking to cleaning to fuel.

A few nep growers not buying seeds isn't a big enough change...it really isn't....unless you can stop people from making furniture, eating, building houses, using combustion engines, and plain old reproducing in in huge numbers.....it ain't gonna change a thing.

[MH1]

Most of the world's palm oil is used in Asian countries

This is sadly true- most of Madagascar's amazing forests have, ironically, been cut down for the plant they use to make bio-fuel. Now, there are only islands of forests in a sea of crop. But of course, they don't tell you that when you are persuaded to buy bio-fuel. :/

[Dexenthes]

Most of the world's palm oil is used in Asian countries, not western ones....for example, in India they use it for everything from cooking to cleaning to fuel.

This I know. But what country is it that has challenged these growing countries to adopt industrialization as their way of life?

And we are still the fifth largest consumers of palm oil. That is worth noting.

[swords]

Well, I think already this is getting way off topic! From Nepenthes seed listings to arguing over palm oil within four posts? LOL

Unless the person is using their screen name from a forum of something, none of us knows who is buying what on eBay. Whether they are geniuses or dolts or what they are doing with their purchases. I've found out after sales that I have sold to both and probably all sorts in between. Would I like everything I sell to go to someone like the doctor in Minneapolis who bought all my old large Neps and not the guy who potted a cutting from my N. hamata in miracle grow and killed it? Certainly but you just can't know who your customers are or in this case who other people's customers are.

If people are concerned enough about the seed listings they can simply report them as a poached items every time they see them posted. That will eliminate a lot of seed grown plants in the hobby but if you really care that much, reporting the listings should certainly be one way to put a stop to it - at least through eBay. It doesn't matter what anyone of us says here about it, eBay is in charge of eBay you'd have to contact them.

[Exo]

This I know. But what country is it that has challenged these growing countries to adopt industrialization as their way of life?

And we are still the fifth largest consumers of palm oil. That is worth noting.

We didn't "Challenge" them to do anything....most of the people over there just don't feel like living an thatched huts anymore, and the govenment funds it's construction by selling timber.


I get sick of misguided people thinking that the US is the axis of evil or something, the countries of the world can be plenty corrupt without our help.

[Dexenthes]

Well, I think already this is getting way off topic! From Nepenthes seed listings to arguing over palm oil within four posts? LOL

LOL So true!

Unless the person is using their screen name from a forum of something, none of us knows who is buying what on eBay. Whether they are geniuses or dolts or what they are doing with their purchases. I've found out after sales that I have sold to both and probably all sorts in between. Would I like everything I sell to go to someone like the doctor in Minneapolis who bought all my old large Neps and not the guy who potted a cutting from my N. hamata in miracle grow and killed it? Certainly but you just can't know who your customers are or in this case who other people's customers are.

Well the difference between these two situations is that your plants were your own, cultivated by you, I'm sure some of them were TC and some of them SG, but either way they were already removed from their environment.

These seeds on eBay are directly from the mountains themselves. They were but a breeze away from landing on the forest floor that their ancestors have been sprouting on for generations.

If people are concerned enough about the seed listings they can simply report them as a poached items every time they see them posted. That will eliminate a lot of seed grown plants in the hobby but if you really care that much, reporting the listings should certainly be one way to put a stop to it - at least through eBay. It doesn't matter what anyone of us says here about it, eBay is in charge of eBay you'd have to contact them.

I guess that's the thing - I have considered reporting them as being poached. I haven't because I know that at least a few of my fellow growers actually buy from them. But where do we draw the line?

Not that long ago there was a bunch of fuss over some Sarracenia being sold on eBay that looked like they were potentially poached. There was a huge stink created over that, and just as an observer of these situations I am legitimately surprised that I have seen no stink whether on this forum, or another in regards to these Nepenthes seeds.

I guess I'm just wondering am I totally alone in thinking this is wrong?


@Exo - Swords is right our discussion got way off topic very quickly, and there's no winning that debate.