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Thread: D. indica x D. burmannii

  1. #17

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    yes they were viable, but they died after a few weeks i think. There was a discussion about it not too long ago on the listserv. I think BobZ had a few actually...
    Z polski y dumny
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  2. #18
    Moderator Cindy's Avatar
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    Both are sundews and both are tropical sundews...I don't know how the discussions went to VFTs and other CPs...

    Anyhow, I've pollinated the indica with burmannnii pollen and the seeds are sown. Will update here when I get seedlings. I am not sure if it will work 'cos indica is self-pollinating and the flowers ain't there large to fiddle with.
    Cindy

  3. #19
    BobZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (phissionkorps @ Oct. 15 2006,7:37)]I think BobZ had a few actually...
    Nope. Not me.

  4. #20
    Always a newbie glider14's Avatar
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    well i mena we have orchid intergenics...why cant we have CPs? i mean some are so close like utrics and genlisea and sarracenia and darlingtonia...why cant there be. ALSO! why cant some neps be crossed like for example rajah and truncata or rajah and ventricosa....its not like theres a difference in structure too much...look at Truncata x Campanulata!!
    Alex
    Everything is explainable. The seemingly unexplainable is but a result of our insufficient knowledge.- Hans Brewer

  5. #21

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    alex:

    some of this has to do with how long ago the two species diverged. As far as I know, and unfortunately, no one is doing work on nep genetics. The crosses you mentioned that can't be done, well, my theory on those types of things is that those species diverged a loooooooong time ago. I haven't seen evidence for or against what I think (though I'm sure there is some...somewhere), but my hypothesis is that nepenthes experience an extremely slow rate of speciation. Competition is over a resource that is limited and limiting. In my mind, neps do not experience this very strongly. They need poor soil and sunlight to survive. The soil conditions where neps occur is neither limited or limiting, and sunlight barely classifies as either even in a strict sense. Another plant might whade the sun out, but isnt bright shade exactly what neps want? Also, you can "classify" neps into "families". In my head, I have the thorelii family, i.e. thorelii, smilesii, 'king tiger', 'giant tiger'....and the rajah family, i.e. rajah, mira, burbidgeae, etc. Without getting too much into genetics...morphology is NOT a good way to classify things. If we were back in the days of natural history, that would be all well and good, but these days you can't look at a pool of individuals and say, z.B.: "oh these 2 have big noses, so they must be related". Also when considering crosses, often times genes are not compatible with each other, no matter how similar they are. There is a figure in (I believe) Scientists Confront Creationism, that explains that cyctochrome-c differs within mammals by only a fraction of a percent. Also, we share what? 99% or something of our DNA with apes, yet a man/ape hybrid is not possible. In fact, our DNA differs with ducks by only 90something%, yet that hybrid isnt possible either. Until someone does a LOT of sequencing work with neps, we won't know exactly why certain hybrids aren't possible, or exactly what is more closely related to what, etc. Personally I don't believe anything I hear about CP evolutionary relationships until I see proof. What are you comparing? Morphology? That went out in the days of Linnaeus. Are you looking at the fossil record? Oh wait, there isn't one (with the exception of seeds of Aldrovanda). Answers to the questions you have will take a lot more time and a lot more research. Unfortunately for us, there aren't many people in the CP world compared to other fields, and for the ones that are, I'm sure its a tad difficult to get funding, as the people who give funding out have this notion that for research to be funded these days, it HAS to be profitable.

    I hope that sort of...kind of...answered your questions
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
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  6. #22
    Always a newbie glider14's Avatar
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    yes it did. thanks...one thing though. if karyotypes have the same amout of chromosomes then why couldnt be possible... if chromosomes mach...there should be little to no difficulty with it...
    Alex
    Everything is explainable. The seemingly unexplainable is but a result of our insufficient knowledge.- Hans Brewer

  7. #23

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    a karyotype is just a "picture" of the chromosomes...so if you are asking if both species had the same amount of chromosomes, why wouldn't it be possible...well, simple genetic variation, they might just not be compatible. You also asked what if the number of chromosomes match. As an example, humans have 23...think of allll the organisms on earth. Don't you think there's at least ONE that also has n=23 that humans could not breed with? In terms of Nepenthes specifically, the chromosome game gets a little tricky. N. rafflesiana and N. thorelii have been reported to have 2n=78, (Kondo, 1969), but Heubl has reported rafflesiana and thorelii, as well as
    N. madagascariensis, N. pervillei, N. distillatoria, N. khasiana, N. truncata, N. stenophylla, N. gracilis, N. eymae, N. veitchii, N. albomarginata, N. reinwardtiana, and N. tentaculata to have 2n=80. Neps exhibit paleopolyploidy. According to Heubl, neps have reached the 8x or 16x level, and have the basic number x=20. Evidence suggest x=5 and x=10 to be ancestral, in neps and drosera, and neps with lower ploidy levels have gone extinct. Some species may still hold on to some ancestral characteristics, at least in a very loose sense, so I sincerely doubt finding neps that have "matching" chromosomes, though an entire set of matching chromosomes is not possible ever, even in twins. In either case, that is pretty much a round about why of explaining why certain hybrids are not possible. You can read the paper I took some of those facts from here:

    http://www.botanik.biologie.uni-muen...st/karyol.html

    The guy is at Uni München, and seeing as he knows about this type of stuff, I might actually attempt to get in touch with him, as this seems to have turned into a convo between the two of us, and I speak German :P
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F5aCUNE4Z8
    ^^^Newest vid

  8. #24
    Moderator Schmoderator Fluorescent fluorite, England PlantAKiss's Avatar
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    Hey guys...its an interesting subject but you are hijacking Cindy's topic. That might make a good topic for General since its a covers a number of species.

    Let's get back on track here and see if anyone can answer Cindy's question.

    "Fox terriers are born with about four times as much original sin in them as other dogs." - Jerome K. Jerome

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