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Thread: What Exactly is D. sp. South Africa?

  1. #17

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    Hi,

    as promised, here are some more pictures:

    D. sp. "South Africa"











    Drosera venusta:



    Drosera natalensis "Debbert":





    Drosera natalensis (Inanada Road, Kwa-Zulu, Natal):





    So, what do you think??

    Christian

  2. #18

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    Thanks for the photos. I would also exclude D. trinervia as a parent based on what I see here.

    I don'k know for sure this is a S. Af. plant. Just a gut level feeling, but the flower makes me question that (again just a feeling)

    The stipule photos I see from habitat are good for what I look for in D. natalensis (not so much for the sp. S.Af though)

    Sp Debbert looks like nothing I know of as D. natalensis, appears closer to D. dielsiana but you have more experience with these taxa than I do.
    http://www.vicbrown.cpuk.org/images/...Dielsiana2.jpg This one looks good to me.

    I highly doubt this plant could be from Cuba.

    Seems unlikey that D. dielsiana which as a large distribution in Africa should have somehow escaped cultivation doesn't it? What makes you say this? Perhaps we should explore this in another thread ;-)

    My conclusion for this plant is a hearty I DUNNO. Have you explored this with Dr. Gibson?
    Last edited by Tamlin Dawnstar; 08-01-2010 at 08:22 AM.
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    Hi,

    please have in mind, that i am neiter a botanist nor have anything studied in this direction. I am just interested in these plants and have read a lot about them as well as i had lots of discussion with many experts. An expert may have a completely different opinion than i do have!

    If i get the type description of D. dielsiana right, than the plant does only have simple at the base divided styles and egg-shapped seeds. That's both not true for any plant i have so far seen labeled as Drosera dielsiana. I discussed this with some german experts, that share this opinion. So, i am actually convinced, that true D. dielsiana is not widely grown if at all. Your picture looks exactly like the one i know of the many plant i got labeled as D. dielsiana. The following pictures show one of the plants, that i would include to D. natalensis instead of D. dielsiana:







    Back to this D. sp. 'South Africa'. I also have absolutely no idea what this is! And as long as this plant is not rediscovered, it doesn't make sense to discuss the identification. We should rather keep it for what it is: a small, very interesting Drosera I also believe, that we will never be able to kategorise every single plant on this planet! Plants are just too variable for this. But we can do our best....

    I am sorry, but i do not have contact to Dr. Gibson, but would really like to hear his opinon on this!

    Christian

  4. #20
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    Will work on getting some seed pics from the D. dielsiana that i received. About what level of magnification were you using? I have access to a scope at the lab with digital cam ......


    looks like:
    http://www.carnivorousplants.org/see..._dielsiana.jpg

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  6. #22
    Hello, I must be going... Not a Number's Avatar
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    Mach

    You could always try typing it out from the description. There's not enough detail of the stipules in the photos. Note it is mentioned that the flowers rarely open in cultivation.

    http://www.omnisterra.com/botany/cp/...tm#D.dielsiana
    5. Drosera dielsiana

    5. Drosera dielsiana Exell & Laundon in Bol. Soc. Brot. 30 : 214 (1956). Type : Transvaal, Lydenburg district, near Spitskop, Wilms 35 (BM, holo.).

    Small, hairy herbs with compact, basal rosettes and a few fairly long thin roots. Leaves 15-25, the old leaves soon disintegrating, apetiolate; stipules small, fimbriate, auriculate; lamina spathulate, up to 2 cm. long, 6 mm. broad above, apex rounded, tapered below into a broad, hairy petiolar part; both types of tentacles present; lower surface sparsely hairy. Inflorescence with the scape leafless, sturdy, straight or rarely somewhat curved below, 10-20 cm. long, hairy near the base; usually about 8-flowered (3-12) with the rhachis erect; flowers secund, small, seldom open according to collectors; pedicels 2 mm. Calyx-lobes c. 5 mm. long. Petals obovate, unguiculate, c. 7 mm. long, pink, mauve, violet or white. Stamens with narrowly winged filaments. Styles forked from the base with the stigmatic apex spoon-shaped, membranous. Capsule oblong, 5 mm.; seeds ovoid, 0.4 mm. black, honeycombed. Fig. 28:5

    Found on the escarpment in the eastern Transvaal, in Swaziland and northern Natal and further northwards in southern tropical Africa, apparently on mountain plateaux. Flowering during the summer months.

    NATAL.-Utrecht : Naauwhoek near Utrecht, Devenish 978.

    SWAZILAND.-Mbabane : Nduma, Compton 25381

    TRANSVAAL.-Barberton : Godwan River, Berlin, Hofmeyer sub PRE 15280. Letaba : The Downs, Junod 4427. Lydenberg : Steenkampsberg, 15 kilometres E. of Draaikraal, Strey 3031; Mount Anderson, Strey 3536; Galpin 13738; Prosser 1796. Pilgrim's Rest : Mariepskop, Van der Schijf 4544; Meeuse 9954.

    Since the flowers seldom open, it is possibly an apmoict.
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  7. #23
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    I knew that was online somewhere. kept on forgetting. Will be trying to do the microscopic photos of the seeds next week.

  8. #24

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    Christian,

    I think you are an "expert" on these South African taxa and have learned much from you! Besides, you've been there!

    I've written to Robert regarding this strange and confusing plant and am awaiting reply.

    NAN, part of the problem with diagnosis is that when using the published Keys all of the criteria must be examined and taken into account. Often, there are some criteria present that support a diagnosis, but rarely are all the criteria present in any given example, and my teachers have stressed there is no better or stronger indicator, all criteria have equal value. When studying herbarium sheets or doing field work, the difficulty is not so great because there are numerous examples from which to compare, but for "orphaned" plants in collections there is usually just the example presented and "pure" species meeting all the conditions for diagnosis simply don't exist in individuals. Even the "type" specimens are subject to this variability. Taxonomy is a highly opinionated science, and opinions are only good as familiarity allows. Christian has grown and studied these taxa more deeply than I have I believe so I respect his opinions more than my own impressions.

    I agree, there isn't much sense in discussing origins except for the mental exercise (or head banging if you prefer). The best solution for future generations is to publish it at cultivar rank, providing some history and a central reference for horticultural growers interest vs taxonomists. I would be pleased to do so if I ever have a chance to grow and assess it. It needs doing!

    Hopefully, Dr. Gibson will shed some light on the mystery, I respect his opinion most of all!
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