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TheFury

Oh, the humanity!!
Hey everyone - I'm almost embarrassed to post up about this. I have several tropical and South African dews that are struggling mightily right now. Since November, my D. aliciae, D. venusta, and D. spatulata really haven't done much of anything. The D. venusta is looking sickly, the D. aliciae keeps developing humic acid on the crown (which I do wipe off with a Q-tip) and looking generally frazzled, and the D. spatulata--probably the happiest of the bunch--just isn't growing.

It's been nearly two months now and no improvement, as you're about to see. I was hoping some of the problems would abate after I moved my plants into my grow rack which I set up about a month before, but at this point these plants aren't just adjusting; they're pissed.

My conditions:
MEDIA - 50/50 Hoffman brand peat moss and Mosser Lee brand "desert sand," a little heavier on the sandy side. The sand passed the "white vinegar test" and doesn't contain any carbonate minerals.

WATER - RO water; I usually fill the trays up to about 1" and let them dry out, wait a day or two, and fill them up again. I also mist the plants from overhead every 2-3 days.

LIGHTS - 4x 32-watt T8 bulbs - 2x 4100K "cool white" and 2x Zoo Med Flora Sun grow bulbs. 11 hour photoperiod, on its way from 9 up to 16... aiming to get there in four weeks.

TEMPERATURE - the rack stays around 80-85 degrees during the day and low 70s at night. When the radiators are on in the apartment, temps in the rack might stay about 5 degrees hotter.

HUMIDITY - 55% humidity during the day and 80%+ overnight.

What really gets me is that I have a few Pings, a Nep, and a S. purpurea in the same conditions that seem totally content right now. Shouldn't these sundews, and these species in particular which are noted for being easy to grow, be more forgiving?? All I can think is bad soil... Any insight y'all can offer would be awesome.

Some pictures:
D. spatulata on 11/29/10:
IMG_0468.jpg


D. spatulata on 1/18/11:
1000000179.JPG




D. venusta on 11/29/10:
IMG_0452.JPG


D. venusta on 1/18/11:
1000000177.JPG




D. aliciae on 11/29/10 (please forgive the typo on the pant label):
IMG_0470.jpg


D. aliciae on 1/18/11:
1000000178.JPG




Frustrating, right??? :headwall:

---------- Post added at 10:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 PM ----------

Ah, forgot to mention, I've also managed to kill not one but TWO D. adelae. I don't get it, they should love my conditions!
 
two things: cut down on the water, increase the light if possible.

The D. aliciae are trying to tell you with the black crowns that they need more arid conditions. The humidity might also not be helping...but your media is WAY too wet.

Also, more light would help. All the sundews can be much redder.

All these sundews like drier conditions. Trust me, I know.
 
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Ah, so black crowns can indicate overwatering? Geez, color me captain overkill. Thanks for that advice - I'll cut down on water right away.
 
Ah, so black crowns can indicate overwatering? Geez, color me captain overkill. Thanks for that advice - I'll cut down on water right away.

Since you got those exact specimens from me (excluding D. spatulata), yes. Not all D. aliciae will do that I suppose, but when mine have too much water and insufficient light, this is what they do.

---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 PM ----------

On further thought, I'm glad you still have all the D. aliciae I sent you, minus one!
 
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Yes, minus one. I lost a weakling! Other than that, I still have everything you sent me--save for that D. intermedia 'Cuba' (RIP). I would love for these D. aliciae to pick up though - they will surely grow into very handsome plants.
 
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i dont think it's overwatering....it's actually humic acid buildup. get a squirt bottle and give the crown a good gentle spritz.

just to prove im not making it up:
http://www.growsundews.com/sundews/Sundew_Problems_Page-Drosera_help_recovery_and_care.html
"The leaves on my sundew are small and deformed, and there is a black substance at the crown of the plant. What do I do?
"The darkening of the growth point, as shown by the photograph [below], is caused by humic acids, and perhaps other solubles, wicking up and depositing themselves, first on the hairs and stipules of the leaf primordia, eventually covering the entire surface of the growth point and leaf primordia. My experience is that this can have a damaging effect on the growing point and can supress new growth. The easiest way to reduce this is to gently provide overhead watering with warm, purified water as often as necessary to reduce this precipitate. Another solution would be to use less peat moss, since it is a strong source for the most offending compounds, though other media ingredients may also be sources. It is also affected by temperature, ambient humidity, air movement, etc."
This substance will also wipe off, if you rub the affected area with a moist cloth. If no action is taken, many of the leaves will become deformed. The preceding quote was found at this page: http://terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106361&highlight=water "
 
I have D. spatulata, and mine aren't growing at any fast rate or anything, but they look great, with orange and pink hues on whatever form it is that develops that color. They really started to perk up and produce dew for me when I blasted them with two power compact fluorescent lights, 65W each, about 10 inches about them. I keep the substrate slightly moist to the touch, but never flooded. I water my planted tank about once a week, intermittently, to the point where the water seeps through the substrate to the bottom level of gravel and pools up about 1/4 of an inch.

Here's a terrible pic of one of my current D. spatulata, sorry for the blurriness, it was taken on my iPod:
d_spatulata01.jpg



But yeah, judging by how the substrate looks, you're keeping them terribly wet.
 
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It is definately related to overwatering...to much moisture. I had probably a hundred of the same plants from the same batch of seed, and they are spread out in different conditions.

Anyway, the pics show media that is quite wet. The crown will not wick these "acids" if water is reduced...this is my experience.

These dews come from South Africa, it isn't exactly wet most of the time there. So, reduce the water, as you will do, and see what happens. It wouldn't hurt to squirt them as long as the media becomes drier soon.


i dont think it's overwatering....it's actually humic acid buildup. get a squirt bottle and give the crown a good gentle spritz.

just to prove im not making it up:
http://www.growsundews.com/sundews/Sundew_Problems_Page-Drosera_help_recovery_and_care.html
"The leaves on my sundew are small and deformed, and there is a black substance at the crown of the plant. What do I do?
"The darkening of the growth point, as shown by the photograph [below], is caused by humic acids, and perhaps other solubles, wicking up and depositing themselves, first on the hairs and stipules of the leaf primordia, eventually covering the entire surface of the growth point and leaf primordia. My experience is that this can have a damaging effect on the growing point and can supress new growth. The easiest way to reduce this is to gently provide overhead watering with warm, purified water as often as necessary to reduce this precipitate. Another solution would be to use less peat moss, since it is a strong source for the most offending compounds, though other media ingredients may also be sources. It is also affected by temperature, ambient humidity, air movement, etc."
This substance will also wipe off, if you rub the affected area with a moist cloth. If no action is taken, many of the leaves will become deformed. The preceding quote was found at this page: http://terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106361&highlight=water "
 
Yup...less water reduces the amount of humic acid the plants excrete.....noticed a difference myself.
 
  • #10
With your humidity levels you don't need to mist the plants.

As for the D. aliciae the black crust is related to the amount of the humic acid in the potting media. To clean it off use a stream of lukewarm water sprayed on the crown. I used a syringe, you can use an eyedropper. To get rid of it permanently flush your media out to remove the excess substances from the mix. Top water in the sink or in a separate tray and discard the runoff. Do this until the water runs relatively clear (none of the "tea" look) either all at once or daily.

See this thread

Specifically Joseph's posts
http://www.terraforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=803215&postcount=19
http://www.terraforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=803268&postcount=21

I keep most of my South African Drosera constantly in water, the exceptions being D. regia and D. trinervia (when dormant). D. aliciae, D. trinervia and D. venusta I often keep the water level within one or two inches of the surface.

As far as climate goes:
Hermanus, RSA (D. aliciae)
Tsitsikamma Coast, RSA (D. venusta)

If you ask me I'd say too dry and too hot. From above: "The average midday temperatures for Hermanus range from 15.9°C (60.6°F) in July to 24.9°C (76.8°F) in February." Tsitskamma Coast: "Maximum temperatures in midwinter average 19 degrees C (66°F) with a minimum of 6 degrees C (42°F). Midsummer maximum temperatures average 28 degrees C (82°F) with a minimum of 17 degrees C (62°F)"

Stellenbosch and Table Mountain (western range of D. aliciae) aren't much different:

Stellenbosch
Table Mountain

As for D. spatulata they always crap out on me like that no matter what conditions I've tried especially after flowering.

D. aliciae
Dec. 06
00640014.jpg

Oct. 08
01300024.jpg

Oct. 09
PA280081.jpg


Note: If you want to get rid of U. bisquamata let D. aliciae overgrow it.
 
  • #11
OK, thank you all for the answers!

@amphirion - I follow Aaron's site religiously. Growsundews.com was the first place I read about how to get rid of humic acid buildup. My problem is that it keeps coming back. I would think that it would get better the more I top-water the plants (and therefore flush the media out), but no dice. Perhaps it's happening precisely because I'm top-watering them so much.

@Soopaman - Nice dews! I believe mine will begin to color up nicely once the photoperiod gets up into the high teens (as I mentioned, I'm only at 11 hours right now... I wanted gemmae from my pygmies!). As I've read, more light allows plants to tolerate more water. Perhaps this is why these Drosera are so annoyed - I changed the light on them but didn't really change the amount of water they were getting. Hmm....

@NaN - So everyone says it's too much water and here you come saying it's not enough water! Lol! Anyway, about the temps - yeah, they're pretty high. I'm working on getting them down. I'm leaving one 'flap' on the side of my grow rack open so my cooling fan can draw cooler air into the rack. This has kept temperatures a few degrees cooler. It sounds like you give your plants way more water than I do, and they look happy as clams. How many hours of light do they get daily, or do you grow them outside?
 
  • #12
Mine are on an east facing windowsill and get maybe 4 hours of direct sunlight in the summer. The rest of the day they get reflected sunlight off the white building next door.

I don't know what else you are growing on your rack but I would just take the covering off completely the way Jimscott has his set up. Your conditions are just about right for tropical Drosera like the petiolaris complex but maybe not so great for the sub-tropical/temperates.

How close are they to the lights?

Here's my D. venusta "coccicaulis". They lose their golden/copper tone during the winter. The ones on my west facing windowsill get more light and keep more of their color.

12/2006
00640005.jpg


08/2007
04020022copy.jpg


01/2011 on the right is the same colony as above, on the left is a new colony started from seed 2-3 years ago.
_IGP8796.jpg
 
  • #13
Those kind of carnivorous plants don't need high humdity at all and i mean they can survive with humidity as low as 20%. So i would'nt worry about humidity. It causes way more bad things than good.
 
  • #14
@NaN - wow, nice dews. Seriously, nice job. All that success in relatively low-light conditions too (4 hours of direct sun?)--relatively low for Drosera that is. I might even get that in my Brooklyn apartment on my tree-lined block! Petiolaris dews, eh? I have always wanted a Drosera paradoxa but figured it was too advanced for me. Maybe it would thrive in my conditions! That totally made my day.

To your question - my dews are around 6" away from my lights.

@eou - yeah, I'm not worried about my humidity, although at its highest it may be too high given how much water my plants are getting.
 
  • #15
For the lighting, you should be able to increase the photoperiod to 15 or 16 hours all at once- I don't think there shouldn't really be any need to increase it gradually at this point (edit- forgot you're growing a sarra under the lights- not sure how that would affect it). Looking back on it, when I was using a 10 hour photoperiod, I would have probably placed my lights within 1 inch of my plants since basically the exact thing you're experiencing happened to me the first time that I used a 10 hour photoperiod to produce gemmae. My D. adelae were crapping out on me...my D. admirabilis and D. nitidula x pulchella was extremely sensitive to water...it was annoying. Then I increased the photoperiod and all my problems went away. That's the reason I never tried producing gemmae again!

Misting is not a good idea- as was mentioned, since it can cause fungus issues and it seems to decrease the life of the leaf considerably. The older leaves, especially, to become sickly or brown up- kind of like the older leaves on your D. venusta. One grower was having a ton of problems, and when he found out that he shouldn't mist them, the plants were thriving again within 2 weeks.

D. venusta definitely seems to prefer cooler over warmer temperatures. My neglected plants (unfed for 2 years) only keep around 2-3 dewy leaves in the summer 85-90F temps in my room, but then maintain about 5-7 dewy leaves at a time during the cooler months (around 65-70 F day). But it appears that something else is wrong...perhaps the longer photoperiod will make it snap out of it. In my case, it was a combo of longer photoperiod and more light intensity (I also lowered the lights) that did the trick in the shortest amount of time.

My D. aliciae all developed humic acids when I had to fill their tray up so the water level was about halfway+ up their 5" pot for 2 weeks (while I went back home in the summer). Then once I got back, I wiped off the humic acids with a cue tip, kept them on the drier side for a while, and top-watering only when the soil dried out again. Then the problem went away. I then moved them to a greenhouse with air constantly circulating, and it seems they can handle much more water without humic acids building up. I need to specify that in the paragraph I made for the topic on my page, but I made sure to link to that article since Joseph's advice was spot-on with reducing humidity, increasing air circulation, or top-watering/not bottom-watering. I've also had great success when I used a 10-inch pot. They grew extremely large, and only 1 plant out of 20 ever experienced blackening of the crown.


I am always amazed by your results from windowsill growing, NaN. I can't believe you've had problems with D. spatulata considering how well your D. venusta do!!! My windows (even south-facing) produce pretty poor results in the winter... It's funny how simple location changes can throw a loop in results from one grower to another.

I've also had the opposite experience with D. spatulata from NaN. Next to D. natalensis, it's been the most adaptable to heat and water levels of the soil, in my conditions. While I'd normally blame all the problems on light, I think it would be insufficient light coupled with the shorter photoperiod---Provided with a big 10-inch pot, my D. spatulata (Fraser Island) even did quite well (got huge) in a partly sunny window (green growth only) during the summer, but they were growing in that pot from spring until the end of summer, when I traded them- so I didn't get a chance to see how they'd do with lower light and a winter photoperiod.

I always wait to feed my D. spatulata (under my T-8 lights) until they turn bright red. They always seem to be happiest/dewist when they have full coloration like that. So I don't think you should be worried about lowering the lights, if that was a concern.

I think the water content in your pots could depend on the sand you're using and how packed-down you made your soil mixture. So I'm not sure exactly what the properties are of the desert sand you're using, but it does seem to look a bit more moist at the surface than NaN's and mine... to avoid problems with D. admirabilis during that time, I actually had to stop watering it for a week at a time, until the soil really dried out. Then I'd barely add more water and wait a long time again...

I was wondering how droseraguy, for example (who has great success with the shorter photoperiod and keeping the lights further away than me), was able to have such good success with his pygmies and other dews. After checking out his place, it seemed that his low temperatures helped the most... I still have yet to experiment with that though... Seemed that there are a few things working together with water, light, and temperature that work together to make plants happy at certain times of the year. You sort of have to experiment to see what works.

Sorry for running on and onandonandonandon
 
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  • #16
have you tried leaving the top flap open and placing the fan at the bottom blowing upward? This can reduce the temp in a small space significantly.


OK, thank you all for the answers!

@amphirion - I follow Aaron's site religiously. Growsundews.com was the first place I read about how to get rid of humic acid buildup. My problem is that it keeps coming back. I would think that it would get better the more I top-water the plants (and therefore flush the media out), but no dice. Perhaps it's happening precisely because I'm top-watering them so much.

@Soopaman - Nice dews! I believe mine will begin to color up nicely once the photoperiod gets up into the high teens (as I mentioned, I'm only at 11 hours right now... I wanted gemmae from my pygmies!). As I've read, more light allows plants to tolerate more water. Perhaps this is why these Drosera are so annoyed - I changed the light on them but didn't really change the amount of water they were getting. Hmm....

@NaN - So everyone says it's too much water and here you come saying it's not enough water! Lol! Anyway, about the temps - yeah, they're pretty high. I'm working on getting them down. I'm leaving one 'flap' on the side of my grow rack open so my cooling fan can draw cooler air into the rack. This has kept temperatures a few degrees cooler. It sounds like you give your plants way more water than I do, and they look happy as clams. How many hours of light do they get daily, or do you grow them outside?
 
  • #17
@boxofrain - My rack is covered on four sides (front, back, left, right) with mylar and five sides (front, back, left, right, and top) with two layers of 40% shade cloth. So it's pretty open on the top of the rack. But I actually have not tried facing the fan upwards to exhaust the hot air out of the top of the rack. Maybe I should pick up a second fan so one can be drawing cool air in the side and the other can be exhausting the warm air out the top.

@CPlantaholic - thanks for that very thorough post. It's good to know that an immediate increase up to 16 hours will not harm my plants. I just changed it this morning - why wait! What got me about your post is how you mentioned your D. nitidula x pulchella was super sensitive to water under a 10-hour photoperiod. Mine is too... it looks like it's melting!

Also, I broke out my tape measure and measured the distance from my tubes to the soil in my pots for real this time instead of eyeballing it. The lights are about 4.5" above the soil line in most of my pots. I would move them even closer, but the tops of my D. binata, D. capensis, a more mature D. indica, and my S. purpurea are within a centimeter of the tubes and I don't want them to start touching.

I will also cut back on feeding until they color up some more. I've pretty much been feeding each leaf as soon as it turns dewy thinking that some food would snap the plant out of it. Mind you this was only every few weeks since not that many of my leaves were very dewy, but I'll hold off for another few days or weeks; however long it takes.

I am absolutely shocked to hear that misting is bad for the plants! That would explain a lot of things. So I should really only ever be misting my Nep and maybe my Utrics. But to clarify, if I'm top-watering my plants only, misting for the purposes of top-watering is OK, right? It's just the combination of bottom-watering and then misting on top of already-saturated soil that's bad news?

Thanks again to everyone for their very informative replies.
 
  • #18
I am absolutely shocked to hear that misting is bad for the plants! That would explain a lot of things. So I should really only ever be misting my Nep and maybe my Utrics. But to clarify, if I'm top-watering my plants only, misting for the purposes of top-watering is OK, right? It's just the combination of bottom-watering and then misting on top of already-saturated soil that's bad news?

(Going off your grow list...) Nepenthes ventricosa should be just fine without misting. Utrics too. I think you might be...a Misting addict. It's all going to be okay man...put down the spray bottle and just walk away. We're all friends and we're here for you.

:jester: (I'm a former misting addict myself. It's kinda fun in an odd way but there really are very few CPs that actually need it.)
 
  • #19
So you have been misting your Sundewdews? If so that is like misting your eyes that is what it feels like to sundews.
 
  • #20
Sounds good. When I top-water my plants, I usually gently pour distilled water directly into the top of the pot, letting the water flow through. It would be much faster than misting, if you are able to access the pots. Anymore, I've ended up only top-watering my sundews in my bigger tray at home once every 3+ months or so...just to make sure minerals aren't building up. But you'll find that if you keep your D. aliciae pot on the drier side, the humic acids will have less of a tendency to form, and top-watering won't be the sole requirement for ridding the plant of the humic acid build-up.

As for your set-up, are you surrounding all the sides so that you don't see the lights at night, or something? I haven't been able to get any mylar yet, and just have open air on all sides of my tray (edit-forgot to mention that I raised the fixtures up for this picture- normally they're much closer):
sundews_tray_method.JPG


As long as the lights are as close as you described, mylar isn't really needed. But it certainly can help if the lights are further away, judging by the results from other growers. I can't really talk though, since I've never tried it, myself.
 
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