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Thread: The taxonomy: Cultivars and spatulata

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    David F's Avatar
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    The taxonomy: Cultivars and spatulata

    I'm currently aware that the experts who could refute, comment, or otherwise answer this inquiry are generally unavailable.

    Namely Tamlin Dawnstar, Barry Rice, and Aaron May (sundewman).

    I've come across conflicting information regarding forms and cultivars of Drosera spatulata. Supposedly Drosera spatulata 'Tamlin' is a "form" according to Aaron May, in his video here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzju3N5hRwA

    He mentions that his plants were seed grown! If this is true shouldn't his plants be Spatulata 'Tamlin' f1 or similarly Spatulata 'Tamlin' X Spatulata 'Tamlin'? According to this page http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq5270.html they are cultivars and the taxonomy above should be used!

    A reference for more well known cultivars (such as Dionaea muscipula)-- you cannot call the offspring of a selfed B52 simply B52, it's well known that they must be called (B52XB52), and even though the parents are genetically identical, the offspring certainly will be different genetically.

    I've received seeds from Aaron May such as: Spatulata; 'Tamlin,' 'Ruby Slippers;' and Bakoensis. All appear to (especially Bakoensis [which is a confirmed "variation" not cultivar]) retain their parent's characteristics. Do selfed sundews retain enough characteristics of their parents to still be considered a cultivar? Could someone more knowledgeable clear up these taxonomy discrepancies between "forms,"
    "variations," possible "speciation," and "cultivars" of this particular species.

    As a side note, the name Bakoensis refers to a location in Africa for which this variation is found. For those unfamiliar, this plant is a compact, pygmy-like form of spatulata.

    Another well known Sundew "Frasier Island" is well retained. Is it a cultivar, or a form?

    These questions bug me all the times, thanks for stopping by.

    -Dave

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    An important point to make: Two things don't need to be genetically identical to be the same cultivar, they just need to both have all the distinguishing characteristics of that cultivar. So any plant from those seed, which end up being (almost) identical to the parents are said to be the same cultivar. This comes into play where, after generations of stabilizing a genetic profile, almost all the offspring tend to fall into the same cultivars.

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    i dont do pots. amphirion's Avatar
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    1) technically yes, if you wanted to be rigid as possible, a more accurate description of 'Tamlin' selfing would be 'Tamlin' F1/F2 etc... however, cultivar rules also dictate that if the progeny kept the same defining characteristics identically of the cultivar, they too may be passed as the cultivar. One excellent case would be Darlingtonia 'Othello'. In 1998, this plant was designated as a cultivar for its lack of anthocyanin. since the defining characteristic is lack of anthocyanin... if the progeny of D. 'Othello' were also anthocyanin free, they would also be designated as 'Othello'. Fast forward to 2011... all anthocyanin free Darlingtonia now recognized as D. californica f. viridiflora. Personally, I believe that the choice to give 'Othello' a cultivar designation was premature and that the plant should have been given a form designation from the getgo, because how we have this cultivar/form mess... if i didnt make it clear, D. 'Othello' and D. californica f. viridiflora are consequently synonymous.

    this is why asexual reproduction of cultivars are positively reinforced, especially in the realm of Sarracenia.

    2) Species: Sarracenia flava
    ------>Variety: S. flava var rubricorpora; S. flava var maxima; S. flava var cuprea, etc... (all these found under Sarracenia flava)
    -------------->Form: S. flava f. viridescens (can be found in populations of rubricorpora, maxima, cuprea, etc) <--potentially a population, not necessarily an individual
    -------------------->Cultivar: S. flava var rubricorpora 'Burgundy' <--usually an individual, not necessarily a population

    3) D. "Frasier Island" is a Drosera of the spatulata complex that has not yet received a formal species designation aka D. spatulata var/f whatever... it is given this name as a marker for those who are interested in this plant and would want to grow it. The name comes from the location where it was found.


    Where's Joseph Clemens when you need him?
    " You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya
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    David F's Avatar
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    Thank you for the well thought out responses. Part of my confusion came from the consistent errors of the VFT world, since dionaeas' characteristics are more distinct and much less heritable (the offspring almost never attain the same "Cultivar name.")

    Good responses, and thanks again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vbkid View Post
    An important point to make: Two things don't need to be genetically identical to be the same cultivar, they just need to both have all the distinguishing characteristics of that cultivar. So any plant from those seed, which end up being (almost) identical to the parents are said to be the same cultivar. This comes into play where, after generations of stabilizing a genetic profile, almost all the offspring tend to fall into the same cultivars.
    That is true. Each cultivar is distinguished from other cultivars by certain characteristics. For example, 'Akai Ryu' is different from other flytraps since it's all red. As long as the offspring plants are similar enough to the parents, they technically are part of the same cultivar, even though they are genetically different.

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    David F. contact me, I have something for you. Your PM box is full.

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    I've got an idea to speed up this process! Just check the International Carnivorous Plant Society's list of Registered Cultivar Names for Drosera! According to it, yes, Drosera 'Tamlin' is a registered cultivar.

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