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Thread: how to get positive sessillifolia ID?

  1. #17
    hcarlton's Avatar
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    Looking at that pic of the lower light sessil's, makes me even more confident of my newly sprouted plants being the real thing along with the background they have.....
    It appears even in lower light though they clearly have the shorter, more rounded leaves than their relatives, and I'm seeing this more clearly with each new pic that shows up, not to mention burmannii stretches out in lower light too. And in the larger aquatic "forms" that rounded lamina is just set out on the end of a notable petiole.
    Oh, and Ras? Your flowers are quite pink compared to most burmannii, and on par with pics of most pink flowers in this complex I've seen, I wouldn't call that a "white flowered" sessilifolia.
    Last edited by hcarlton; 12-31-2014 at 08:15 PM.
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    Ras's Avatar
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    yea but I compared that to pics of wild sessifolia by fernando

    far left u can see an open flower

    aswell as these from pic from photofinder



    which is what got me wondering if "true" sessilifolia have pink flowers, because so far all the sess with the "wild" growth pattern all seem to have pink flowers aswell. before this past week I had always thought sess flowers were white with a pink hue. maybe the pinkish flowers mine have are because it is a hybrid?
    again this is why I was going to just label it sessilifolia until someone tells me for certain that sessilifolia do indeed have hot pink flowers.
    I suppose the only way to know for sure is to ask someone who has seen them grow in the wild at multiple sites to find out if there is a known site where sessifolia grow with more whitish flower petals
    Last edited by Ras; 12-31-2014 at 09:02 PM.

  3. #19
    Hello, I must be going... Not a Number's Avatar
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    St. Hilaire's description of D. sessilifolia in Latin

    Drosera sessilifolia

    D. foliis radicalibus, sessilibus, cuneatis, apice obtusissimo laciniato-ciliatis, usque ad medium ciliato-glanduliferis, basi subtusque nudiusculis; stipulis cilaiato-multipartitis; scapo complanato, glabro; calycibus glanduloso-pubescentibus, stylo 5-partito.

    Radix fibrosa, nigra, Folia radicalia, creberrima, rosaceo-cespitosa, 6-8 l. longa, sessilia, cuneata, apice obtusissimo laciniato-ciliata, viridia, supra ab apice circiter usque ad medium ciliis rubris obtecta, basi subtusque nudiusculis; stipula basi interiore instructa in semi-circulum disposita. Stipula ciliato-multipartita, Scapus solitarius, subspithameus, complanatus, hinc et inde 1-striatus, glaber, pauciflorus. Flores secundi, pedicellati : pedicellus 1-3 l. longus, glandulis rariusculis obsitus, calyce brevior; infimus ebracteatus; caeteri bractea stipati parva, lineari, obtusa. Calyx turbinatus, profunde 5-fidus, glanduloso-pubescens, persistens; laciniis latiusculis, lanceolato-linearibus, obtusis. Petala 5, hypogyna, cum laciniis calycinis alternantia iisdemque longiora, subunguiculata, obovata, obtusissima, integerrima glaberrima, purpurea, persistentia. Stamina 5, hypogyna, cum petalis alternantia, glabra, pistillum subadeaquantia, perisistentia; filamenta filiformia, complanata; antherae subcordatae, inter lobos basi affixae, immobiles, posticae, 2-loculares, externe longitrorsum dehisoentes. Stylus 1 terminalis, profundissime 5-partitus, glaber, persistens. Stigmata 5, terminalia, 5-7 partita; divisuris teretibus, albidis. Ovarium 5-gono-globsum, glabrum, 1 loc., polyspermum: ovula numerosa, placentis quinque affixa parietalibus, semi-cylindricis. Capsula vestita calyce petalisque et staminibus marcidis, stylo coronata, 5 valvis; valvulis media septiferis. Semina ovata, nigra.

    Affinis D. cuneifoliae Lin. sup. et D. Burmanni Whal.; differt autem a priori praecipue foliis revera sessilibus, inferius usque ad medium nudiusculis et scapis glabris; a D. Burmanni notis foliorum supradictis glandulisque calycinis pedicellatis.

    in palubus prope praediola Tapeira et Riachao in deserto provinciae Minas-Geraes dicto Certao-do-Rio-de-S.-Francisco. Florebat Julio, Augusto.


    Ok, so D. sessilifolia has purple flowers. D. burmannii can have pink/purple or white. So if purple or pink it could be either or a hybrid. If white probably D. burmannii or a hybrid. However the second to last paragraph is all important. St. Hilaire notes the similarity to D. cuneifolia and D. burmannii and notes the differences.

    Google Translate:
    Similar to D. cuneifoliae Lin. sup. and D. Burmanni Whal .; in reality, however, differs from the previous one, especially the leaves sessile, glabrous below, even to the midst of the nudiusculis and its shaft; D. Burmanni leaves marks above calcycinis pedicellatis glands.

    As far as I can make out the differences with D. cuneifolia has to do with the hairs or lack of there of on the undersides of the leaves and the flower scape. D. burmannii has something to do with glands, pedicels and calyx.

    If someone can translate the Latin the answer to the question may lie there.

    Here are scans of St. Hilaire's notes, holo and isotype herbarium specimens of D. sessilifolia
    http://hvsh.cria.org.br/hv?action=by...ifolia&typus=1
    Last edited by Not a Number; 12-31-2014 at 11:26 PM.
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  4. #20
    Ras's Avatar
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    as I suspected, mine might be a hybrid which is why the flowers are so much whiter than ones I've seen photographed in the wild....
    I found this old post that helps clear some things up
    Posted 02 February 2008 - 01:01 AM
    "Hi guys!

    The characteristics separating these 2 species are:

    1.) Flower scapes erect in D.sess. (usually ascending in D.burm.)
    2.) Lamina rounded in D.sess. (usually triangular in D.burm.)
    3.) Flowers pink in D.sess. (usually white in D.burm.)

    As you see, these are not very "strong" differences, especially because D.burmannii may present any of the above characteristics, but they are usually not all 3 found together as in D.sessilifolia. I can't tell from your pictures if the scape has a curve at the base, since it's hidden among the leaves. I also can't tell, but the flower seems white to me. But the leaves are rather more rounded than usual D.burmannii.

    It's very hard to say, but I'd place my bets on D.burmannii or else a D.burmannii X D.sessilioflia hybrid.

    Good luck!
    Fernando Rivadavia "
    http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index...howtopic=25297



    the more I read the more confused I get, idk anymore what mine is. might not even be drosera

    side note I would love a pm from anyone who knows where to get sessilifolia with real pink/purple flowers. just putting that out there
    Last edited by Ras; 12-31-2014 at 11:52 PM.

  5. #21
    Hello, I must be going... Not a Number's Avatar
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    Vahl's Description of D. burmanni (as published)

    Burmanni DROSERA scapis radicatis calycibusque glabris, foliis spathulatis feffilibus.
    Ros solis Zeylanica, foliis rotundis in orbem expanfis villofis. Herm. muf. Zely. 18.
    Ros folis foliis circa radicem in orbem dispofitis. Burm.Zeyl.p207.t94.fig.2.
    Drosera rotundifolia. Lin. fl Zeylan. 120.
    Habitat in Zeylona>
    A Drosera rotundifolia distingui meretur. Folia enim subsessilia, basi attenuata, semiunguicularia: ciliis tenuibus aequalibus. A Dros. cuneifolia dignoscitur glabririe scapi & pedicellorum, denique triplo minor.

    Vahl notes similarities to D. rotundifolia and again D. cuneifolia and something to do with lack of hairs on the scape and pedicels. Again a good translation of the Latin would help.
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  6. #22
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    Judging color from photographs is not a good standard because there are so many factors that effect how the colors appear. Lighting, time of day, background or surround colors, even the color of the shirt the photographer was wearing (reflected light) can make profound differences.
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  7. #23
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    very true but when its something as different as hot pink and white you can get a gist of it at least, but that said I agree. some colors can also be hard to differ and are sometimes more based on opinion, some shades of pink/purple are pretty much the same color imo.

    anyways point being if it has all the signs of a sess + a pink flower it probably is a sess. the white/whitish flowers throw me off though, and it seems most "sessilifolia" in cultivation have white flowers and most if not all pics ive seen of the sess in the wild they are clearly a pink or purple(not white). another thing I noticed is it seems most people have sessilifolia from the same spot, 'chapada dos guimaraes'. if someone could get fernando back in here lol he seems to be a name that keeps coming up as the sessilifolia expert, and I believe I read that he has seen the sessilifolia in chapada dos guimaraes in the wild so maybe he could tell us if they are indeed white flowers

    another thing I found on another forum


    "Hello Christian,

    Very interesting! So the styles in D.burmannii are apparently longer than in D.sessilifolia. I wonder how consistent that is... Has anybody else payed attention to this? Does anybody else have pictures? As far as I can remember from the times I saw D.sessilifolia in the wild, the styles were always short. This might be a good character after all... Tom, don't give up IDing your plant yet! In fact, how does your plant compare to characters 1 & 3 from my list above?

    Take care, Fernando Rivadavia "

    the bolded part interested me but the thread kinda took a different turn, maybe the styes are another way to tell

  8. #24
    hcarlton's Avatar
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    I'm starting to think someone just needs to get a good permit, collect new seeds, and restart the process. The amount of confusion surrounding these two species is almost painful....
    Definitely the color of those wild flowers are a whole lot darker than anything I've yet seen in cultivation, so everything is now suspect to me once more, thanks, though it begs the question whether or not as well conditions ex situ might be having an effect as well?
    Everything has a reason, whether big or small. Never underestimate the power of what is or is not.
    There is far more to everything than meets the eye.
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