Edwardsiana

[The Griffin]

SydneyNeps,
 This would be waaaaay down the road, obviously, and in an alternate universe, but say Robert did not sell the seedlings and raised them to maturity and they flowered and he produced seed from them. Would it hold as much taint to you as the original seedlings?
 I find this debate kind of interesting, btw.

 Cheers,

 Joe

 

[SydneyNeps]

If the law of diminishin returns applies, then seed from captive plants wouldn't be an issue. Given the amount of seed that can be grown from freshly harvested seed at the right time is huge, it takes a lot of pressure off wild plants. I wonder how many N. ventricosa are poached from the wild??

 

[dlybrand]

Just a thought, and regardless to the issue of legality about these plants, but what if we somehow arranged to return these seedlings to their grandparents' place of origin? Seeing as how they're such rare plants, even a dozen seedlings (maybe grown out to a better size first) could significantly boost the population.

On discussions about growing hybrids, people have talked about how our personal collections don't have a chance of saving wild populations, but if someone offered to buy some seedlings and pay for the necessary permits they could really help. Of course, the parks service for Mt. Kinabalu would have to agree!

I personally can't afford to pull off something like this, but I'd be willing to donate to such a cause.

-D. Lybrand

 

[SydneyNeps]

I don't actually agree with the sentiment that our collections wouldn't be able to re-establish wild populations. It obviously depends on future habitat protection and quality, but assuming that an area was being rehabilitated and protected, there is no reason why there couldn't be enough genetic variability to repopulate.

However, it requires conservation infrastructure, and few countries where Nepenthes are found have this. It is better that plants are kept in cultivation and propagated by seed, and freely shared around - the more growers the greater risk management and greater the genetic diversity of captive populations. In future years when maybe things have changed, then re-establishment in the wild can be done. However, at the moment with poaching and habitat destruction being rife, it is not worth it.

 

[dlybrand]

You make a very good point. Well, with that idea put aside, let me go a little off topic. I think people were saying that our private collections couldn't bring back wild populations because of clones. If people really like a particular clone, then everybody buys it. If it's male, you had better hope than one of the few female seedgrown ones was purchased by an experienced grower. As we see here, there are some situations where this isn't true and there may be greater genetic diversity in cultivation than in the wild.

-D. Lybrand

 

[rattler]

actually you could come up with a decent genetic variety from 4 different adult clones(2 male/2 female) with a species with decent sized flower spikes you could probably wind up with several thousand seedlings in a couple years.

with the right networking between growers even a small number of clones(aslong as you have both sexes) could yeild a large number of plants with atleast a slight variation in their genetic code.

 

[SydneyNeps]

Which is why I always go for seed-grown, rather than tissue-cultured plants. For plants like clipeata where there are only 3 or 4 TC lines in culture, extinction through lack of genetic diversity is a real issue. However, for many other species where there are hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of seed-grown individuals, it is a completely different story. The main issue is to know which grow you obtained a particular plant from, and whether it was seed-grown or tissue-cultured, which is important from a breeding/genealogy perspective.

 

[rattler]

which is why i am looking for a nice male veitchii or two as i have a female highland one.............you would think that wouldnt be to hard of a search wouldnt yah?

 

[nepenthes gracilis]

Small world, I have a female highland veitchii too! lol

 

[rattler]

lol, btw does anyone have any males? ive got an adult cutting that is from an unsexed plant so i MIGHT have a male but if the person i got it from hasnt flowered it, i dont know that i can. i dont hear about flowering veitchii all that often which is odd given all the hybrids and decent number of clones floating around

 

[SydneyNeps]

Ah, but are they from the same location?? Veitchii is found in a wide area, so there are many different locational variants around...

 

[rattler]

very true, but if it came to a species faced with extinction and only say 6 different clones. even if there are two different locations(provided they will grow at the same temps and such) do you cross the two locations in order to up the genetic variation or just keep the same location together?

BTW i dont care what locale, i just would be happy with ANY male veitchii......i dont know mines locale anyways as it is a cutting from a plant that was brought to the US in the late 70's or early 80's according to the source.

 

[Brian_W]

My only hope is that the seedlings are being distributed to people who have experience and the correct conditions.  If the distributor of rare species has to provide proof that the plants aren't poached, then it seems that the people receiving the plants should provide proof they have experience and proper conditions. This usually doesn't happen when price tags get attached to rare plants.



Brian

 

[fc3srx713b]

yeah i think thats right...

 

[swords]

If you look at the price of the edward seedlings that should keep most "newbies" away from the species. It's quite unfortunate that you can buy an N. rajah for the price of a department store orchid. How many rajahs die in cultivation with those sorts of prices. I'm a proponent of higher yet affordable prices (for good quality/healthy plants) as that often makes people think twice but: "well it's only $30" is statement I hear at garden centers a lot when yuppies are picking out an orchid. Yes it's good that the killed rajahs are TC but it is the principle since were all talking morals and principles here.

As far as donating plants to botanical gardens goes, I and several of my orchid freinds have tried to donate extras and outsized rare plants to them as well as our time and effort to train their gardeners to care for them and they will not take them. One friend of mine is the star of the MN orchid show held at their botanical gardens every year and they will not take his award winning plants. Even species they do not have even though they have a full orchid room. I attempted to donate my 6 foot diameter bicalcarata for their hothouse, something they do not have and a plant in the picture of robust growth and health, and they refused to accept it.

 

[philcula]

Quote[/b] (Brian_W @ Feb. 15 2006,8:52)]..... it seems that the people receiving the plants should provide proof they have experience and proper conditions.
Brian

Here we go asking people to submit resumes again.

 

[nepenthes gracilis]

I agree with the proof of experience. Although it is a pain, the rarity of these plants MUST be considered, especially since they are seed grown. But like what was stated, price tags will usually keep the inexperienced people away from it. I don't think a person with 1-2 yrs of growing experience will go after a $150 N. platychila.

 

[rattler]

Quote[/b] (nepenthes gracilis @ Feb. 15 2006,3:40)]I don't think a person with 1-2 yrs of growing experience will go after a $150 N. platychila.

you might be surprised there. in the herp hobby i know of kids(yes kids, ~13) who have the money to drop $500 apiece on multiple pythons and boas cause their parents will buy them anything to keep them happy. so while most of the time price is a deturant, it isnt always. in all reality, if this person chooses to its not all that hard to figure out who has the experiance and who doesnt. a quick search of an individuals user name on her or CPUK can give you a general idea about their skills in growing various CP's.

personally, till i prove to myself that i can keep lowii, hamata(a real hard one i know

) and aristo happy and pitchering for over a year i wont even consider this species and i do have the money to throw around on a plant like this if i chose too, though most funds are currently be directed twords 2 other hobbies, 4 rifles and 5 scopes in 2 months hurts the pocket book just a lil plus scheming with another board member on some exotic frogs aint helping either, especially given our plans..................


(BTW no one has PMed me to let me know what price range we are talking about with this plant)

 

[The Griffin]

Quote[/b] (glider14 @ Feb. 12 2006,3:13)]his profile is gone...hes no longer with us.....BUT HE DESERVES IT!!!!!!

Why did he get what he deserved?

I have not been to CPUK in a while(seemed like the exact same subjects were there as here), but how does their ranking system work?
Kind of a touchy subject on demanding a grower's qualifications.


Cheers,

Joe

 

[philcula]

Hey rattler-

I heard from someone that the plants were $150 each.

I also find it somewhat biggoted that the folks who are NOT selling these plants are already trying to screen out the undesirable less experienced growers? What a very, very bad name actions like this will give this forum, expecially to newbies. It's nobody's business who this fellow sells these plants to so get off the subject already!