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Thread: Ventricosa x Aristolochioides

  1. #25

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    Hi Ron:

    Just ask how many people grow hamata under so called "lowland conditions" I know one person, maybe 1 or 2 more, but that's all.
    Hawaiian climate is not the typical lowland condition Ron, it may be warmer, but it's more humid and i am sure people living near the ocean shore may experience more temperature drops than those living in Singapore: Right Cindy?
    Also, different clones have different growth patterns, Just because sibuyanensis is a highland, perhaps may withstand more heat. As a matter of fact i have mine growing for 4 years under highland conditions and 3 months of the year under lowland conditions:

    Results: the plant is still alive but without pitchers. So is that what you call it good growing? then yes Ron you are right.


    So before we have another marathon of what can grow with heat at night and what can't: let's raise our hands those who've killed: aristolochioides, rajah, villosa, muluensis, murudensis, hamatas, jacquelinaes etc grown under lowland conditions!

    Gus

  2. #26

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    I typed out a HUGE reply, then something happened and it disappeared. This will be a lot more concise just in case.

    More than "1 or 2" people grow hamata under something different than optimal conditions. In fact, I think RC has quite a few...If you think 2 people are all, perhaps it is time to do some sleuthing work.

    Hawaiian climate is not the typical lowland condition Ron
    You're kidding right? ...you DO know where Hawai'i is...right? What do you mean "it's more humid"? More humid than what...Indonesia!?!? They're both islands (well one is technically an archipelago, but whatever) that have relatively little land mass, and lest you forget the main property of an island....they tend to be surrounded by water. Ergo - its humid! Go dig up some average monthly temps for, for example, Honolulu and Pontianak. Pontianak is actually a few degrees warmer for about 3 months of the year; otherwise, temps are so similar in both places that it hurts. Of course, in both places it'll be less humid further inland than on the coast, but let me put it to you this way. Houston is about an hour from the Gulf of Mexico. Dallas is about 4.5 hours north of Houston. The average relative humidity in Dallas never falls below 52%. See where I'm going with this? I don't know if theres even a part of IDN where you could drive for 5.5 hours, and not eventually start getting closer to the ocean. If you drove down the center of the main island longways, it'd take more time than that, but you'd be equidistant from the ocean on both sides, and still not 5.5 hours away from it. Again, beside the point.

    I've heard you say 6 months wasn't long enough to be growing plants in “adverse” conditions. I've also heard you say that you'd have to grow it for at least a year. Now you're saying even 2 years isn't enough. Do you really, honestly think, that a plant would grow well under “adverse” conditions for 2 years, then without showing any signs of being unhappy, would randomly keel over and die? In the words of Arnold, “LET'S GET SERIOUS!”.


    Results: the plant is still alive but without pitchers. So is that what you call it good growing? then yes Ron you are right.
    So we're putting words in my mouth now? Look at RC's plants that have been in lowland conditions for years...they look amazing. Same with *******'s HL stuff he grows LL. As you know, humidity can help a plant to be happy even if temps are far from optimal. Thus, my collection isn't the best example, since I grow everything inside at around 30% or lower humidity, in about a constant 85 degrees. My fusca Sarawak is pitchering, and low and behold, it's range is 1200-2500m (sibuyanensis range is only 1500-1800m. My tobaica has pitchers on every leaf its made since I've had it, but thats because its “really” an intermediate, right ? (it inhabits a wide range, overlapping sib's range). My eymae x stenophylla x lowii does VERY well, though its parents are all highland, one ultrahighland even. But OF COURSE that's because its a hybrid, right ? I could go on like this, but, next point...
    Looking at the site I posted above, you can see that sibuyanensis has this “***” next to it. I'm just going to go out on a limb here and assume you don't speak German, so I'll be so kind as to translate the meaning of that given at the bottom of the page: “can be cultured under both lowland and highland conditions”. (emphasis added)

    With the species you listed at the bottom, they suffer from what I like to call “hamata syndrome”. They're expensive (with the exception of 2), they're hard to find (with the exception of two), and they are known from a single digit number of clones! Surely, if there was some hamata seed floating around, not only would the species be more available, but it would grow under a wider range of conditions. This, you can't argue with...though I'm sure you'll somehow find a way . As you may or may not know, hamata is found all the way down to 1400m, and jaq down to at least 1580m (or maybe it was 1850? Dyslexics untie!). If you're going to tell me that specimens grown from seed from ranges that low would absolutely need ultrahighland conditions at all times, that's downright ridiculous.

    I know that reply is huge, but you tend to have a random, fleeting, awkward style of argument (no offense). I try to cover as much stuff as possible because if I don't, you tend to switch from the point of disagreement to a different point, which just forces me to cover more and more stuff each time. Also, I'm tired, tired, tired, of hearing people say that you absolutely can not grow highlanders in lowland conditions and vice versa. Of course there are exceptions, but thats the point...its the exception rather than the rule that a plant needs extremely specific conditions to grow and pitcher. Its high time to enter into the age of Nepenthes Enlightenment. It's also not good to believe what everyone tells you (as in...these plants can't be grown in diff conditions). I've heard advice from a very well respected person that made them seem as if he was "off his rocker" (a hint for you to remember the thread). I also recall a prominent person writing a book that says windowsill growing is, and I quote, "best left to the experts".
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
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  3. #27
    Moderator Cindy's Avatar
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    I for one, do not consider Hawaii true lowland because it has got a reasonable temperature drop for the nights for most parts of the year and cross winds going in. I have been there myself so I know there is a difference. A place like South East Asia, other than those living in the highland has got very little temperature variation..especially those living in the heart of concrete cities. Growing intermediate/highland plants in such lowland conditions where N. ampullaria, N. rafflesiana grows naturally is quite a challenge.

    Nonetheless, most growers here will try growing all sorts of species and hybrid. Within Singapore itself, we have different levels of success with the plants. A garden grower with very high humidity for his plants has to accept that the temperature drop is not as good as those growing the plants hanging over the parapet of a highrise apartment. The ones living "higher up" like myself has to contend with light coming in from only a single direction and lower humidity on a very hot day.

    My philosophy of growing Neps at my balcony is: if it grows, it grows. If it is genetically pre-dispositioned to pitcher with less temperature fluctuation, it will pitcher eventually no matter how long it takes. I am too lazy to think about extra cooling devices etc etc. However, I installed a misting device recently which I intend to use only during the very hot months...partially for the plants but mostly for me having to tend to them in such blasting conditions. People can say that a highland species grows for them in lowland conditions but they give the plant an extra boost of humidity or fertilisers...nothing wrong with that but without all these "accessories" can a highland species really grow well in lowland conditions? Would anyone even think that if I hang N. hamata up next to my N. gracilis in natural conditions here it would do well?

    I do believe that there are clones within each species which have different degree of heat tolerance. It really depends on what you end up with in a purchase. I have two N. sanguinea growing side by side. One stopped growing altogether during the hot months while the other continued growing yet giving thick succulent leaves and distorted pitchers. When the hot months passed, the first one resumed its growth and continued to make normal pitchers. The second plant took another 2 months because the leaves and pitchers started looking normal. Which is more heat resistant? I really don't know unless one of them dies in high temperatures of 90F and low humidity of 35% next year. All I know is that with 80F day and night, and humidity constantly above 60% now, these plants are happy.
    Cindy

  4. #28

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    People can say that a highland species grows for them in lowland conditions but they give the plant an extra boost of humidity or fertilisers
    Of course, if temps are way too high, humidity is also going to have to be high. If you fulfill all a nep's requirements but one....
    Regardless, this point of this discussion isn't throwing something out there to fend for itself. The point is giving it everything it wants (including fertilizers, if need be) with the exception of the proper temperatures.

    Also, I can't think of a single coastal area that doesn't have a temperature drop at night, and doesn't experience winds.
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
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  5. #29
    Moderator Cindy's Avatar
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    Perhaps it is just a matter of being open about one's growing conditions. If N. sibuyanensis grows well here in my typical lowland conditions but gets 24/7 misting or regular fertiliser boost, I should include these details when I say "N. sibuyanensis grows for me in lowland Singapore!" There are still many growers who do not share in depth how they get certain plants growing.

    I applaude the young Malaysian grower for being about to pitcher his N. rajah in a sealed terrarium with nearly 100%RH but constantly in temperatures of high 80s. He shared how he set up his terrarium and gave very specific details as to what the humidity and temperature is like day and night and that he uses artificial lighting. With his kind of transparency, it gives growers an option to experiment with their growing conditions.
    Cindy

  6. #30
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Exceptional light, humidity, fertilizers, media, water and air movement aren't hard to provide. Everything is very easy to compensate for without spending some serious cash, except for temperatures (unless you want to haul ice around every night. I'm far too lazy for that) unless you live in a naturally cool place. If temperatures aren't as important as you say (and I know that RC and Sam grow amazing plants) why aren't we all growing "real" highland plants in lowland conditions? Why do so many people fail when they try that, given that all of the other factors seem fine?

  7. #31

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    I can tell you one of my main reasons I don't keep that many highlanders is humidity. My current conditions just don't allow for getting my humidity any higher than about 30%. When I move back to Houston and it never drops below about 60%, well then we'll see what I can really do.

    Sam and RC have a great climate. It's hot, but not as hot as it is here (we get multiple months where the majority of the days are over 100). I also live in a desert, where the outside humidity (unless it just rained) almost never rises above about 50%, but usually is somewhere around 20% (if not lower). My outside temps and humidity are bad....RC's and *******'s are not. Oh and fluorescents don't cut it when compared to the sun...
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F5aCUNE4Z8
    ^^^Newest vid

  8. #32
    Moderator Cindy's Avatar
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    If temperatures aren't as important as you say
    I did?
    Cindy

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