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Thread: FOTO feeding Nep. TRUNCATA with FISH !!!

  1. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (endparenthesis @ April 07 2006,7:32)]Hate to break it to those labelling fish "higher lifeforms"... but fish aren't wired to feel pain. It's all just an involuntary stimulous response. They don't require fear and trauma to avoid damage... their brain simply tells their body to evade and it happens, without resistance. They and other simple lifeforms are basically organic robots, programmed with DNA.

    Conscious beings like us need more than just a signal from the brain to stop ourselves from doing something stupid, and thus pain enters the evolutionary picture. And of course we start anthropomorphizing and assume that if we feel pain, everything must. But consciousness is a relatively recent development that requires a lot of hardware and a lot of energy to sustain it... most animals have gone on just fine for eons without it.

    I think consciousness is implicit in the word "pain", which is what we get hung up on. That term doesn't apply to non-conscious creatures. There's just "nobody home" to experience it.

    I'd never advocate injuring or killing a living creature for no good reason (it's very bad for our psyches too)... especially the conscious ones... but I'm just saying... if you're really heartbroken about the fish, you're the only one going through any torment here. The fish certainly doesn't care.
    Wow, what a great post! I never knew that fish didn't feel pain. Thanks for the insight

    *goes to feed tons of fish to his Nepenthes*

  2. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Hate to break it to those labelling fish "higher lifeforms"... but fish aren't wired to feel pain. It's all just an involuntary stimulous response. They don't require fear and trauma to avoid damage... their brain simply tells their body to evade and it happens, without resistance. They and other simple lifeforms are basically organic robots, programmed with DNA.
    I hate to break it to you, buddy, but you're naive.
    There is considerable evidence that fish do, in fact, feel
    pain. Pain is a fairly basic stimulus, and given its very
    fundamental nature and function, it's highly
    improbable that organisms as complex as fish do not
    experience it. The links below support my assertion.



    See the following:
    BBC News
    Fishing Hurts
    Cruelty of Fishing

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    So what if hurting a fish matters, Weve been doing it for thousands of years, God intended for Fish to feel pain, and thats that!

    Now for ants...

    STarting a decient sized ant colony, would be tough and you would need a multi queen ant colony to keep up with a single plant... even then you would seveirly kill an ant colony.

    It taking about (on average) 2 - 3 months for an ant egg to fully mature, This is just enough to have a few Ants to HArvest food right befor Winter... to suport the colony over winter (im talking Northern Ants that need hibernation) Then it takes about 2-3 years to have an established colony... So unless you had the right species of ant like Tetramorium caespitum with 20 or so queens and kept it that way for about 3 years you MIGHT be able to suport youre Nepenthes for about a few montsh befor needing to stop before seriously handicaping youre colony, if not killing it from lack of workers to suply food for the eggs and then well you would keep bouncing up and down every odd year... Now if you had 2 or three ant colonys so you could Switch around then we might have a deal!!

    sorry but youre ant idea is almost improbable ive done the reaserch... muahahah

    cheers

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    Yes I agree there is evidence that fish do feel pain. Even octopuses can feel 'stress' in the concious way humans do.

    But...what about lizards? Just to throw more fat into the fire...

    My brother's N. x miranda


    Lunching on a



    The lizard was caught by a natural process, so pls don't give me all that **** in the last few pages.

  5. #61
    nepenthes_ak's Avatar
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    They are saying its ok, just as long as its not thrown in by you...

    I guess youre right with the stress thing... The whole Color changing?
    Insects do to you would think, rationalizng pain as a thought prosces wehre youre brain tells you to get away can be interperated as a FEeling, or interpreated as a need to get away, so In this they can their for feel pain its just not pain as we feel but it certainly is a pain.

    Cheers

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    I don't think insects would feel pain, many other organisms respond without feeling pain, its natural stimulus-response. The 'need to get away' evolved from - those which didn't react and get away would get eaten, killed etc.

    I think the colour changing is more to do with warning away predators and attracting mates than stress. The stress I'm talking about is the concious (as opposed to colour-change which may be unconcious) stress and 'emotion' almost which can be likened to humans feeling stress from work. Need to clarify this, do we have any octi experts?

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    nepenthes_ak's Avatar
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    I think youre preceiving it as pain as we feel it, i am talking about the "run away" signal after their brain tells them to, it just isnt painlike we feel it.

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (neps @ April 08 2006,1:15)]I hate to break it to you, buddy, but you're naive.
    There is considerable evidence that fish do, in fact, feel
    pain. Pain is a fairly basic stimulus, and given its very
    fundamental nature and function, it's highly
    improbable that organisms as complex as fish do not
    experience it. The links below support my assertion.

    See the following:
    BBC News
    Fishing Hurts
    Cruelty of Fishing
    I've read some of the articles you posted in previous research (and some others you won't be posting). They tended to just ignore the whole consciousness issue, which is amazing because it's the cornerstone of the entire debate. Or at least it should be.

    Actually I think the first article might agree with me more than it does with you:
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]However, it is an entirely different matter to draw conclusions about the ability of fish to feel pain, a psychological experience for which they literally do not have the brains," he said.

    He quoted from a study by Professor James Rose of the University of Wyoming, US, in which it was found fish did not possess the necessary and specific regions of the brain, the neocortex.
    ... which is basically my point.

    The second article brings up one interesting thing about the endorphins, which I'll look into further. Though assuming that this implies a psychological experience as they do would be a heck of a stretch. There are a number of things going on where endorphins would be useful that have nothing to do with psychology.

    The third article is pretty much the typical load of anthropomorphization.

    Again I think the use of the term 'pain' rather than 'nociception' is causing both us and some of these authors some confusion... it's a very loaded word that's very hard to mentally separate from the implication of consciousness.

    You're welcome to explain to me "who" exactly is experiencing this pain. That little fish brain just doesn't have the hardware for this sort of awareness... we just assume it does because it's alive and we're alive and our perception starts with us. Top-down thinking.

    I'm very much against animal cruelty, but I'm also against letting knee-jerk reactions decide how and why I'm against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Need to clarify this, do we have any octi experts?
    I'm not an octi expert, but I think cephalopods have at least a sort of proto-consciousness. I'd definitely bet on them reaching sapience first if mammals weren't in the picture.

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