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Thread: Interesting seed germination instructions

  1. #25

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    Oh so now the head of TC for Atlanta Botanical Gardens
    I wasn't referring to him, I think you missed the point.

    I am sorry, terminal logic flaw, apples to oranges there.
    Yeah, no. That is a perfectly logical argument. Perhaps you should review logic and analogous statements. And how can you be an expert in some type of operation if you've never even been to medical school? That's kind of an oxymoron.

    There is not a single place in this thread where you actually concede that the technique could work. All you do is blast everyone for thinking it could and point out how the entire world is wrong but you are right.
    There also isn't a place where I said that it absolutely will not work either. I didn't "blast" thegriffin, rockstarcobain, or trent...in fact I "blasted" no one. There are some statements in Dave's guide that are flat out wrong, like the fact it takes months to reach the rosette stage, or that light will cause yellowing. If you want to count that as "blasting" someone go ahead, but that is not correct information.

    There is not a single place in this thread where you actually concede that the technique could work
    Did you not read? I definitely did say
    I'm not saying low light absolutely will not ever work,
    Now if anyone else had said that, without a doubt the first reply would have been that it was BS
    If you're insinuating that you would've challenged anyone but Rob, that is hilarious. Are you president of Rob Cantley fan club as well? Neps can grow in pretty much anything; wood, broken glass, foam, some metal, anything really. The soil rajah (and a few other species IIRC) grows in naturally is kind of a special case anyway, so I don't see why that would've been so hard to believe.

    If that is the attitude you want to take then go right ahead. It is childish to say the least but you are free to do what you want.
    I see sarcasm is lost on you.

    Really? How do you know that?
    When you plant exactly 30 seeds of the same exact cross in two different pots and place them in the same exact humidity and temperature, but one pot is right next to lights, and the other is in a shady corner, and you get germination in the pot that was right next to the lights, but none in the pot that was in shade....well that's pretty conclusive.

    I hate to have to tell you this but you are not then end all and be all. Your opinion and experiences do not change the nature of the universe and what actually is and is not.
    Yeah no joke, I was never implying that. I do however, find it funny that this is coming from someone as arrogant as yourself. After all, I've never responded to someone disagreeing with me with "I bet I know more than you" .
    Again, as I said, I haven't "blasted" anyone.
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F5aCUNE4Z8
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  2. #26

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    Cindy, did you manage to create the 126,200 lux or 12,000 lumens?
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F5aCUNE4Z8
    ^^^Newest vid

  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by phissionkorps View Post
    Cindy, did you manage to create the 126,200 lux or 12,000 lumens?

    Pyro, got your e-mail, thanks, will answer it later today.

    Cindy, you'd better buy a really accurate meter. Earlier PK told us it was 129,166 lux. Now it should be 126,200 lux. The extra 34 lux might make all the difference...

    Giving a figure in lumens is meaningless by the way, it's lux we are talking about here, lux in a measure of intensity, lumens is a measure of total output. To give your seedlings the total 12,000 lumens output by a single fluorescent tube you would need to wrap the seedlings around the tube. Not easy...

    PK, you are evidently obsessed with academic qualifications, it comes up in thread after thread. You talk knowledgeably about light levels. Perhaps you have a university degree in physics? Or one in engineering? No? As it happens I have university degrees in both disciplines. I'm versed in scientific protocols and statistical analysis but none of that is important for such a fundamental observation. I made the conclusions I have about seed germination based on basic deduction from decades of observation of things like this:

    We often germinate Nepenthes seeds in tiered racks. The tray on the top gets literally hundreds of times the light intensity than trays lower down do. They all germinate the same, and grow the same, until they are larger, when light levels do start to matter. This in a simple observation of fact and has nothing to do with academic qualifications or lack of them.

    If you are convinced that a certain level of light is needed, then what about the spectral composition? Should Cindy aim for 126,200 lux of daylight? If so should it be filtered? With what? Quoting the light levels you germinate seeds under is completely meaningless without details of the nature of the source. Even telling us it's fluorescent isn't enough. Are the tubes daylight, white, off-white or growlights? How old are the tubes?

    I don't know everything about growing Neps, I don't even know most of what there is to know. I do know enough to respect that when someone posts their observations based on experience, then unless they are lying, their observations add to the sum total of the scant knowledge we have. I objected (as did Pyro) to the wrong, wrong WRONG response Dave's guide drew from you. It works for him, there is no need to bash it. He's just trying to help others.

    I'm careful not to ever post as fact something I've not tried myself. You'll never find me commenting on, for example, the benefits or dangers of using fertilisers, fungicides or insecticides that I haven't tried. I'll never say that a potting media is good or bad unless I've tried it. The sum total of my experience (and academic knowledge) leads me to draw conclusions. Sometimes I may be wrong, or only partially correct. For example, the light levels required for seed germination - perhaps it's more species dependent than I realise. Maybe it's completely different for N. klossii, I'm not sure about that one yet.

    To be a good scientist you need to be prepared to be contradicted and at times corrected. It's beneficial to sometimes be proved wrong, but note the word "proved". No-one knows how many times Dave succeeded with his protocol before writing that guide. To say it's downright wrong requires hard evidence to the contrary. If you have had better success with some other method, then why not nicely say: "I'm not sure this is the best way, I've had good success with ......."
    Rob Cantley
    Nep Nut in Sri Lanka
    http://www.borneoexotics.com

  4. #28

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    I objected (as did Pyro) to the wrong, wrong WRONG response Dave's guide drew from you. It works for him, there is no need to bash it. He's just trying to help others.
    then why not nicely say: "I'm not sure this is the best way, I've had good success with ......."
    Point taken. I guess I should've worded my objections different. Well there's always next time

    If you are convinced that a certain level of light is needed, then what about the spectral composition? Should Cindy aim for 126,200 lux of daylight? If so should it be filtered? With what? Quoting the light levels you germinate seeds under is completely meaningless without details of the nature of the source. Even telling us it's fluorescent isn't enough. Are the tubes daylight, white, off-white or growlights? How old are the tubes?
    I used a converter I found online to convert 12,000 lumens to 126,166 lux. I actually converted it to candela/sqm, which is equal to lux, just as candela/sqft is equal to lumens (according to the website anyway). I use three 4' long dual tube fixtures which house 3 'plant & aquarium' bulbs, 2 'kitchen and bath' bulbs, and 1 'cool white' bulb. 12,000 lumens is a rough estimate; each bulb gives ~1,900. Since lumens are measured from the distance of 1 foot, the pot is usually right next to one of the fixtures, thus getting more than 3,800 lumens, but not more than a foot away from the others.

    perhaps it's more species dependent than I realise. Maybe it's completely different for N. klossii, I'm not sure about that one yet.
    I do mostly hybrids, but I've had great success w/ mira this way as well. I am currently giving it a go w/ neoguineensis, insignis, and maxima Wamena. Are there seeds of klossii floating around now?

    Sorry for any typos I'm in kind of a rush ATM.
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F5aCUNE4Z8
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  5. #29
    Moderator Cindy's Avatar
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    Sorry guys, I am really lost in the conversion. I use a light meter to get a reading, not from calculations. My flourescent lights can give me at the brightest 13,000lux. My balcony at the moment with direct sunlight at 5pm measures 67,000lux.

    With that, I am already seeing green spots after looking directly at the sun. How do I achieve 120,000+lux?!
    Last edited by Cindy; 08-11-2007 at 02:30 AM.
    Cindy

  6. #30

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    How do I achieve 120,000+lux?!
    Ehh...I guess just use the sun or if possible, the light and the sun?
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F5aCUNE4Z8
    ^^^Newest vid

  7. #31
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Something must be wrong with my math. I divided 126,166 lux by 12,000 lumens (Phissions numbers, I think) and got 10.51383333 lux per lumen, then multiplied that by 20,000 lumens (which is the initial output of my light) and it says I have 210,276.6667 lux.

    ? Surely something is wrong with my math? I'm using a 250 watt MH. It can't be initially more than twice as bright than the mid day sun, surely. That seems ridiculous. Must be a math.

    I wonder, if my initial lumen count is 20K, how many I'm using now after.... let's say 8 months because my memory is squat.

    Here's the conversion bulb I use if it matters.
    http://www.businesslights.com/ushio-...mp-p-1413.html

  8. #32
    Moderator Cindy's Avatar
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    It's the math, JLAP...sometimes logic doesn't make sense.

    phissionkorps, I used to be very vexed over the conversion from lumens to lux so I got fed up and bought myself a light meter. If I am to achieve 120,000 lux, I will need to move up to the mountains and get closer to the sun...

    Anyway, back to germination...I will just try and provide as much light as possible using my FL. Putting the seeds out under the sun in a box is not possible because I will end up cooking them. N. bicalcarata seeds are too precious...

    Just took readings.

    Box 1: 10,000lux
    Box 2: 100lux

    Will update once I have germination.
    Cindy

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