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How to foliar feed (properly)

  • #21
I never said you were stupid. I've already said how much and how often you should fertilize. I said 1/4th tsp. per gallon and no bugs. NO bugs if you fertilize via the pitchers. Feeding insects is inefficient. There's no real reason to do it when you can fertilize via the pitchers.

If your fertilizer calls for almost four teaspoons per gallon (3.785 liters per gallon), it must be really weak. What are the three numbers on the front?

When I say 1/4th tsp, I mean of solid or practically solid. That's generally going to be about what you use. If your fertilizer calls for more or less, just cut that amount in half. You should use 1/2 tsp per liter since yours is a liquid. Sorry I overlooked the fact that your fertilizer is a liquid. You didn't overdose your pitchers, you put water in a pitcher with bugs. This is why your pitchers rotted.

To be honest, it sounds like the company that made your fertilizer is selling you mostly water. Almost four teaspoons per gallon is a lot when you could buy a solid concentrate like Schultz's. Always go for Urea free.

Why do I separate ideas like that? It's weird. Anyway, James, your plant looks good. Some plants, like N. truncata (which also happens to be one of the parents) produce exponentially larger pitchers (up to a point, of course) so I'm not really surprised your plant did this. I believe it would have done it if you had never fertilized. HOWEVER, the plant would not have made such a LARGE size difference from pitcher one to pitcher two, and the plant would have also taken longer from start to finish to produce pitcher A, grow the next leaf, then produce pitcher B.

Those reading this, don't think you can't get these results without fertilizer. You CAN. The difference is that you'll have a shorter life on your pitchers (IME, I've never done a real experiment ), will add a lot of WASTE to your pitchers, can produce a smell, can produce mold (no shaking, either hehe), you can't control it either. If you want to raise or lower the NPK %
s for whatever reason (for example, to promote the chances of flowering) you can't do that with bugs. Fertilizer is just an efficient, clean way to feed your plants. Even if you are feeding the same amounts of NPK via bugs or fertilizer, the fertilized plant will be cleaner, won't smell, and the old pitchers will look healthier on the fertilized plant versus the bug fed plant (even when feeding them both the same amounts of NPK each way, even though there's really no way to measure the NPK the plant gets when feeding bugs).
 
  • #22
JustLikeAPill,

When you fertilize, I assume you do it about every 15 days with 1/4 per gallon as the powdery concentrate calls for 1/2 per gallon - do you fill all the pitchers on the plant to the top, just one or two of them, or do you measure out, say 1 cup and fill a plant's pitchers until you're out of that 1 cup of fert?

I could have sworn I read that fertilizing the pitcher directly caused the pitcher to die and I know I've seen a non-qualified comment of "and NEVER INTO THE PITCHERS!", but clearly you've had good results from doing this.

xvart ferts his soil and has a soil mix that resembles mine. I think you said you use LFS as part of your Nep soil mix, and fertilizing the soil/roots has caused you serious mold problems.

I may try one of each method on two of the same plant and see what happens at some point.

Edit: I thought you had mentioned in the thread what exact fert you use on your neps, but I don't see it. One more time, with gusto please? ;)
 
  • #23
Whoo. I'm getting confused lol. Everyone uses something different and metric vs. imperial. OK. I use 1/2 tsp per gallon because MY particular fertilizer calls for 1 tsp. per gallon and because I fertilize every 15 days. If you're fertilizer also calls for 1 tsp per gallon, and you choose to fertilize every 7 days, then you should use 1/4th strength. Whatever your fertilizer says to use, cut that in half to fertilize twice monthy, or cut that into quarters for weekly fertilizing. If I led anyone to believe I use 1/4th tsp, I don't; I use 1/2. Sorry if I confused anyone (different fertilizers, solid vs. liquid, and different units of measurement really confuse matters :p )

When I fertilize, I fill each and every pitcher all the way to the top. If you've got a very old pitcher that's half dead, cut off the dead part and just fill the living part. I've got pitchers over a year old I'm still filling. Over the course of the next 15 days, the fluid level is going to be approximately where it was before you fertilized. Of course, this will differ with different RH and perhaps even your watering schedule, but that doesn't matter. Fill to the top. Even tiny pitchers, fill them with a syringe.

Putting time-release pellets like osmocote into a pitcher, especially a small one, can kill it. These pellets are not all the same, so one pellet may be fine but if you had used a different pellet from the same bottle, you may burn your pitcher. These should only be added to the media (and I don't fertilize the roots.) Adding a fertilizer with added Urea could burn your pitchers. Fertilizing with added Urea can burn anything. Adding fertilizer to a pitcher than has caught, or will catch bugs (excluding springtails, and fungus gnatts which all plants outside of a flask will catch. They are too small to matter) can burn the pitcher. Adding water to a pitcher with bugs in it is going to dilute the enzymes and allow the bugs to putrefy and rot your pitcher if there is sufficient mass to allow this. Nepenthes have opercula for a reason, and that's to keep water out and maintain the equilibrium in their pitchers. In cultivation, where you can prevent them from catching bugs by growing inside your home, there's no risk of bugs putrefying so it's safe to add water to the pitchers. Fertilizing the pitchers is the best logical place to do it. The roots are a wirey, fine net of tissue designed to take up water and any nutrients they can absorb quickly, before those nutrients are washed away. The pitchers, OTOH, evolved specifically to catch insects, and absorb the nutrients through the inside. They even have special glands to facilitate this, so to me, that would be the optimal place to do it. Fertilizing via the roots is good for the plant (bad for your LFS based media), but it's sort of a secondary method for the plant to get it's nutrients, the primary method being via the pitcher walls.

I should note that adding water to your pitchers will weight them down. It won't hurt your plant, but the pitchers will drop down and the leaves will droop down. This is not the equivalent to wilting, the leaves remain just as firm and healthy. This does not harm them, and theoretically can let you grow more plants in less space. Don't count on it :p

I've used several fertilizers. Organic and inorganic. I don't see a difference, but I've never performed an experiment. Right now I use Alaska Fish Emulsion. Steer clear from Urea when fertilizing any plant. Steer clear of added micro nutrients because added copper and zinc are toxic to Nepenthes. If you're new to fertilizing, have extra cash you don't mind spending for the reassurance of security, and are afraid to use concentrates (solid or liquid), then go buy Terracycle. It's sold pre-mixed. It's a rip off because they're basically selling you dirty water. It can be used full strength without fear, however, and that's the only reason anyone should buy it: if they're new and apprehensive. I purchased it like last spring or so, because it was very earth friendly, but I decided it was too weak and expensive to justify buying. I went back to using concentrates like I had done before.

I'll post some pictures later with explanations and approximate ages to put your mind at ease.
 
  • #24
Edit: I thought you had mentioned in the thread what exact fert you use on your neps, but I don't see it. One more time, with gusto please? ;)

With gusto? Okay, you asked for it:

:boogie: :boogie: Better Gro Orchid Plus 20-14-13!!!!!! :boogie: :boogie:

Mind you, I'm not trying to induce flowering or do anything super special or cool, as Phission mentioned. That's a whole other ballgame.

xvart.
 
  • #25
Whoo.[rest of text snipped]

I followed all of that, actually. The fert I got is in fact Urea free and contains no micronutrients as far as I can tell (see xvart's link below).

The medium I use to grow my Neps is 1 part sphagnum peat, 1 part perlite, 1 part verniculite, and 1 part fine orchid bark.

I could probably use either method - soil fert or pitcher fert - but since I put LFS at the bottom 0.5 inches of the pot to prevent gradual soil loss, I'd better use the pitcher-fill method. or I'm going to have an algae problem, with loss of water draining as it fills the area, that I can do nothing about unless I remove the Nep and repot it (noooo!).

Next plant I get, I won't add any LFS to the bottom, and will try the soil fert method. I've no doubt I won't be able to tell the difference between the two.

Lastly, I have a feeling that the people who killed their pitchers by filling them with fertilizer had a good chunk of Urea Nitrogen in their fert, from what you're saying.

I should be OK for a pitcher fill with xvart's stuff.

You and xvart rock out. This was one of the most edifying threads ever.


With gusto? Okay, you asked for it:

:boogie: :boogie: Better Gro Orchid Plus 20-14-13!!!!!! :boogie: :boogie:

Mind you, I'm not trying to induce flowering or do anything super special or cool, as Phission mentioned. That's a whole other ballgame.

xvart.

I ordered that exact bag last week. Hope it gets here soon.

Thanks for the gusto. ;)
 
  • #26
Next plant I get, I won't add any LFS to the bottom, and will try the soil fert method.

I use orchid bark at the bottom of pots instead of LFS. It's course enough to easily allow water through, but blocks enough of the soil mixture from getting through.

It should also be remembered what Phission said earlier about flushing the pots afterwards. I neglect to mention that since my water schedule usually takes care of that; but if your mixture holds more moisture, you'll want to flush the pots within a couple or three days.

Thanks for the gusto. ;)

My pleasure. Anytime. ;)

xvart.
 
  • #28
spraying the leaves with ferts is like trying to get nutrients from OJ on your skin....

i also use(on and off...) better gro orchid Plus. but i dont remember the numbers for it :(

Alex
 
  • #29
This stuff is loaded with copper, zinc etc. Micronutrients that JLaP mentioned were very harmful to Neps. I had purchased some from Lowe's and turned around and returned it unused.

Which is why it was suggested to flush the pots well. These micronutrients only become a problem if they build up over time.

xvart.
 
  • #30
This stuff is loaded with copper, zinc etc. Micronutrients that JLaP mentioned were very harmful to Neps. I had purchased some from Lowe's and turned around and returned it unused.

If xvart's been using this for a while and it isn't killing his Neps, why is this bad?

Every recommendation for fert I've gotten so far, someone else has said it was bad for Neps.

Osmocote contains copper, and they're made specifically for Neps.

Does anyone have a link to fertilizer that's not bad for Neps, or is the amount of copper/zinc in the 24-14-13 stuff xvart uses not enough to be troublesome to Neps?
 
  • #31
Which is why it was suggested to flush the pots well. These micronutrients only become a problem if they build up over time.

xvart.

I assume you mean drench it with reverse osmosis water till it runs out the bottom? About 3 days after putting it in the soil?
 
  • #32
He flushes it so it doesn't build up, however the plants still absorb some until he flushes. It's sort of like eating cadmium or lead. You can eat non lethal doses... but then they build up and kill you. Extreme example, I know.

At the end of the day, even though he's flushing so it doesn't really build up in the media, he's still adding copper and zinc for the plants to absorb, and that's bad. I wouldn't buy it again if I were him. Besides, added micro nutrients cost more and Nepenthes haven't been shown to benefit them. Maybe they get their micro nutrients from the microfauna they inevitably catch. If you find a brand with added micro nutrients EXCEPT for copper and zinc, then go for it.

I'd like to know which osmocote line is made specifically for Nepenthes. That's a first. If osmocote does contain copper and zinc, don't use it! Or find a line of osmocote that does not. Why knowingly add POISON to your plants? Remember, minuscule amounts of arsenic is still arsenic. Some fertilizers, if you dig through the internet and find EVERYTHING in them tested at a lab, contain mercury, copper, zinc, lead, arsenic. I'm not kidding! These aren't added (trust me, if anything is added then they play it up with bright labels and charge more, and no one would add arsenic, lead, and mercury), but are impurities. These quantities are so minute that they don't matter. PURPOSELY added zinc and copper are bad.

To me, flush means thoroughly running water through the pot two or three times.
 
  • #33
I use Maxsea seaweed fertilizer. The 16-16-16 kind shown here:
http://www.tindaraorchids.com/index_tindara.htm?fertilizer.htm~rbottom
(note: I have never used that vendor)

I was recommended this stuff by one of the top nepenthes growers there is, and my experience with it has been very good. I use it once a month, watering normally as if it were regular water. I know several expert growers that do the same, but as always, your mileage will vary.

Capslock
 
  • #34
The fertilizer I use has 13.4% urea, 0.05% copper, and 0.05% zinc. Are you going to seriously tell me that my plants are being poisoned even though the majority of them look great? Yeah, copper and zinc aren't great for neps, but you need to seriously think about concentration. If 0.05% of 1/4tsp is water soluble copper, which is then diluted in a gallon of water, the concentration is obviously negligibly low. If my plants that have been dosed at slightly over 1/4tsp/gal every 2 weeks for over a year suddenly all die, then I'll believe it. Until then, its just hearsay. Not only are my plants not looking worse, they're looking better. There are no studies I'm aware of which look into a toxic amount of urea/zinc/copper on Nepenthes. In fact, in all the time I've been fertilizing with this fertilizer, I've only burned 1 plant, which I attribute to heightened sensitivity of fertilizer for that one plant.
 
  • #35
I am definitely not a nep expert, However I think it needs to be said that fertilizer levels are a dynamic variable. What is the right amount depends on many other variables.

Example... "bob" uses a substrate that is very low in micronutrient "Z", but his fertilizer is high in micronutrient "Z" so Bob can increase the amount without running into nutrient antagonism whereas the same amount may kill "Henry's" plant

"George" has bulb "A" while "Mary" uses bulb "B"., Bulb B puts out more usuable energy so Mary can increase her feeding amounts/frequency more then George can without problem. Her plant can process the increased nutrient levels, but his cant.

and then we have to take into consideration that species B grows faster then species C, so it can take a higher amount...

what is the substrate, what are the light levels, what spectra, what is the temp, humidty, species, watering regiment, airflow, photoperiod... etc. etc etc

my point is each person has to experiment and observe their own plants under their own specific conditions. Start slow... watch for signs of stresss, let the plant teach you what it can and cant handle

the questions you are asking do not lend themselves to black and white answers... what works for JLAP may not work for PK, what works for PK may not work for me, what works for me may kill your plant... on and on

its ok to ask for advice... but realize that at the end of the day you will have to fine tune your own techniques mate

Av
 
  • #37
JLAP, the pitcher didn't rot at all, it wilted in a matter of hours, and went floppy like potato slices subjected to osmosis! It was because of too much fertiliser!
 
  • #38
So I want to use 1/2 a teaspoon to a litre every seond week, or 1/4 of a teaspoon to a litre each week. I'm only fertilisng at all because I read sometihng about fertilsing a while back, looked in my nana's washhouse, and wallah! ther just happened to be orchid fertiliser handy!
 
  • #39
Wilted, rotted, whatever. It wasn't happy.

Ron, yes. Don't flush your pots properly and you can burn your plants with urea. Don't flush your pots properly and copper and zinc can build up. Ignore the fact that urea burns, must be broken down before uptake by plants by microorganisms (so that you're giving them less nitrogen than you think
 
  • #40
I flush once 3 days later, not 2 or 3 times, and everything works out fine. I'll ignore it because making a blanket statement in nep culture will make you a fool, at least eventually. It hasn't done a bit of harm to any of my plants, and like Av said, it depends on your conditions, etc.

My mix is 5:2:2 peat/perlite/vermiculite, though I do use bark mixes on some plants. The bottle of fert even says "....for epiphytic orchids..." on the bottle. It's never been a problem on these mixes either.

But enough talk, I figure I'll show my plants:
DSCN0279.jpg


DSCN0278.jpg


The pitchers are 7", and the same size as the leaves!
 
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