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N.Edwardsiana

  • #21
obviously everyone would want to cut up their plant to spread the wealth and increase their availability. ( also making money at the same time )
That is so not true. I know the owner of a cp nursery in the US that has Nepenthes plants that are so large you could make hundreds of cuttings from them...but the owner diligently refuses to cut even the tiniest piece off these otherwise unruly vines. Yes the plants have multitudes of basals. Yes they pretty much have all flowered. But NO....no cuttings will EVER be taken and offered for sale; and we're not talking super rare stuff here. We're talking about a grower who just isn't interested in spreading them around.

Do I care to benefit from these plants? Not in the least. Do I care that other people benefit from these plants? Not in the least. Why? Because it's the grower's right to decide what should be done with them. Not every cp grower feels the need for practicing conservancy and spreading the 'wealth' even though they KNOW the income could greatly benefit the livlihood and future of their business. Is this considered greedy? I don't think so at all. They're his/her plants to do with what s/he wishes.

Do I think this kind of practice makes sense? No, I don't. I am one of those growers who believes very strongly in spreading his plants around, rare or otherwise, specifically for keeping the material alive and in other hands in the event of a disaster. Who knows when I may need another piece back some day. But, I would never pass judgement on a grower who chooses not to. I would just talk about him/her behind their back, LOL!!! jk :)
 
  • #22
some wonderful points brought up here. A fascinating thing to read indeed. From what I read N. edwardsiana seed is probably the most fragile seed in the genus with very very specific requirements. It seems to be very hard to replicate the conditions for the seed in-vitro. I didn't know that it is in TC already. But, the rate of growth doesn't surprise me. Time and time again, I have heard how slow these plants grow. Apparently they are slower than N. rajah or N. lowii. All we can hope is atleast the multiplicity we are getting in TC would allow us to get a few plants...or few clones. I guess N. klossii is another sad situation. Heck, I am wondering why I don't see N. hurrelianna in this list here. Its one of my favourites and I feel in love with it on first sight. Its clearly better than any veitchii I have ever seen. The sad part is not all plants are the same and we can only hope that in time, some of these TC nursaries can invest more time and energy into getting these species in cultivation on a wider scale.
 
  • #23
Phil, i know of a similar grower......took me buying $120 in orchids and telling him to name his price for the cutting of one of his neps that i wanted before he would sell it to me....and you know what i believe the thing that made him agree to it?....i told him i wasnt a local and likely wasnt going to be back in his area for many years so he figured if the cutting didnt work i wouldnt be banging on his door demanding a replacement like has happened to him in the past.....
 
  • #24
"his/her plants to do with what s/he wishes. " Philcula

of course. I wasn't trying to sound as though I was "passing judgement"...
 
  • #25
cmm889 - I wasn't by any means insinuating that you were. I meant that comment more as a blanket statement...and certainly appologize if you felt it was directed at you.

rattler - I feel your pain. I know the orchid grower you are referring to. Placing plants in competent grower's hands is important as the return is worth more than the plant will ever be. Plants you have shared/traded will make it back into your hands. Unfortunately some people don't see things in the same light. The dollar signs in their eyes far outweigh the perpetuation of rare material. If I'm not mistaken...that orchid grower has small divisions of Phragmipedium besseae for sale for $30,000 per growth. To each his own I guess.

Varun - I have been told that N. hurrelliana is being released for sale this year. I don't recall if these are tc or seed grown...but given who they are comming from, you can expect they will be the most outrageously expensive 'little' things you have seen yet.
 
  • #26
yeah he is an interesting character but as someone running a business myself, i aint going to criticize how someone else runs theirs.....if they can keep the doors open they must be doing something right even if i dont necessarily agree with it, and the plants i have received from him have been quality just on the expensive side....granted sometimes with plants quality will trump a good deal to save a few bucks which is why i tend to give my dollars to only a couple nep sellers ....ive got zero problems buying from the individual, be they orchids or neps, but i prefer to do so in person on the rare occasion im in the area.....
 
  • #27
Point well taken, Pyro, and everyone else. I spoke with hasty words.

True, if I had an Edwardsiana, I wouldn't be rushing to do cuttings. Still though, I would bet that a decent sized cutting could probably fetch almost any price.

Whatever the matter it makes little sense to me that a species like Villosa is pretty readily available, and from what I gather in the same range and similar density to that of edwardsiana, and it certainly can't grow a whole lot quicker. I guess it is mostly just unfortunate all around. Especially regarding Klossi, as it is not in a protected area, and is threatened.
 
  • #28
its called luck.............you would be surprised how often things like that are due to one or two very small details that could have easily gone the other direction.....
 
  • #29
Aye, and it also seems like Villosa might have been recognized by the masses sooner.
 
  • #30
Aye, and it also seems like Villosa might have been recognized by the masses sooner.

You've got a point, but nurseries would rather deal with plants which are more likely to survive in cultivation or even in a nursery display -- not always a guarantee when dealing with ultra-highland Nepenthes, their restrictive cultural requirements, and outright expense. If you saw the N. villosa thread I posted on 11 March, there is one shot of the pissant little plant when it first arrived -- and it looked none too healthy; and that one was considered the "best" of three in triage . . .

It took votive candles, unhallowed rites, regular slug patrol, and over two years for it to recover -- and, occasionally, I know what I am doing . . .
 
  • #31
I saw your little sprout. It's looking good now!

Every freshly arrived Villosa I've seen really does look just pathetic.

A characteristic I find really appealing about the villosa clan (Macro, eddy) is that even in upper pitchers some of them still have nice looking wings going up the front.
 
  • #32
You've got a point, but nurseries would rather deal with plants which are more likely to survive in cultivation or even in a nursery display -- not always a guarantee when dealing with ultra-highland Nepenthes, their restrictive cultural requirements, and outright expense. If you saw the N. villosa thread I posted on 11 March, there is one shot of the pissant little plant when it first arrived -- and it looked none too healthy.

It took votive candles, unhallowed rites, regular slug patrol, and over two years for it to recover -- and, occasionally, I know what I am doing . . .

isnt that fun? :D i run into the same sort of issues with some species orchids.....only a handful of ppl will be having success growing them in enough quantity to sell for certain species.....aint anyway some of them will ever be mass produced.......you take what yah get when yah can get them if yah want them.......complain about the price and they will just sell to someone willing to spend it......

look at N. × trusmadiensis......the only reason its as easy to get ahold of as it is, is some popped up out of TC'ed lowii seeds a few years ago.......pure luck that you can actually get ahold of it on anything remotely approaching a regular basis........
 
  • #33
isnt that fun? :D i run into the same sort of issues with some species orchids.....only a handful of ppl will be having success growing them in enough quantity to sell for certain species.....aint anyway some of them will ever be mass produced.......you take what yah get when yah can get them if yah want them.......complain about the price and they will just sell to someone willing to spend it......

look at N. × trusmadiensis......the only reason its as easy to get ahold of as it is, is some popped up out of TC'ed lowii seeds a few years ago.......pure luck that you can actually get ahold of it on anything remotely approaching a regular basis........

You're right . . .

You just have to accept that you're not going to see Nepenthes edwardsiana, hamata, villosa, macrophylla, jamban, tenuis, and oh, so many others in a Lowe's Death Cube anytime soon . . .
 
  • #34
I wasnt trying to sound like (and im not!) someone who's just in it for the money. I was simply saying the nursery could make money off of rare plants. I completely agree with the statements about spreading the rare species out. The more the merrier huh? And it protects diversity (if it isnt TC'd obviously), and who doesnt find it amazing they have an endangered plant plant on their windowsil?

BB's completely right. These plants will most likely always be rare, rather it be because they are difficult to propagate or because people can charge nearly anything for them.
 
  • #35
just cause a nursery "can" make money off plants, doesnt mean they will............for MT to walk away from their Nep program is more than likely cause they werent making money at it..........
 
  • #36
And on a personal note, I find it more than a little infuriating that people relatively new to the community (and for the record, I have been growing 10 years and I consider myself to be pretty new to the community) would be so critical that someone with 2 whole plants had not gone out and "flooded the world" with seed/cuttings.

also kinda gotta laugh at the fact that individuals that have never run a business(in some cases have never even had a real job) want to try and dictate how others run theirs so it will benefit themselves with no regard to the owner.........

I agree. I believe it has to do with the false "entitlement" that some growers have. Especially in the internet age where any grower can share a picture of anything and others that do not have access or the money to obtain said plants think (or believe) that they are immediately entitled to grow them, too.

xvart.
 
  • #37
rattler - I feel your pain. I know the orchid grower you are referring to. Placing plants in competent grower's hands is important as the return is worth more than the plant will ever be. Plants you have shared/traded will make it back into your hands. Unfortunately some people don't see things in the same light. The dollar signs in their eyes far outweigh the perpetuation of rare material. If I'm not mistaken...that orchid grower has small divisions of Phragmipedium besseae for sale for $30,000 per growth. To each his own I guess.

Varun - I have been told that N. hurrelliana is being released for sale this year. I don't recall if these are tc or seed grown...but given who they are comming from, you can expect they will be the most outrageously expensive 'little' things you have seen yet.

Wow! truly fascinating Phil. it makes me wonder why this plant was ignored in the first place. I mean it grows on Mt. Kinabalu. There are around 30 species there. I think I can say almost all of them are in cultivation except edwardsiana and hurrelliana. We have read stuff about eddy being hard to multiply or start off in TC. But whats the fare for hurreliana.

Yeah! You are probably right. The first batch of eddies and hurrelianas when they make em available will be outrageously priced. But the sad thing is most of us fanatics still spend the money on it. :p
 
  • #38
But whats the fare for hurreliana.

prolly cause it was discovered just a few years ago.........unless one happens to have ripe seeds available for collecting and a permit to collect at the time of discovery it tends to take time for them to enter cultivation......
 
  • #39
well...formally N. hurrelliana was described only in 2003. Heck jamban was described in 2006 and we already have the plant in TC. Yeah! each species is different in its behavior in TC and probably on a relative level, N hurrelliana may be very rare further decreasing the probability of finding a plant in seed for collection. Anyways..... all I can say is the future in nepenthes cultivation looks very grand for us as we are finding more and more speices every year. :) Lets just hope that the eddy, klossii and hurrelliana can be made availible to public soon enough.
 
  • #40
I agree. I believe it has to do with the false "entitlement" that some growers have. Especially in the internet age where any grower can share a picture of anything and others that do not have access or the money to obtain said plants think (or believe) that they are immediately entitled to grow them, too.

xvart.

I understand both your points, and readily accept that what I said was a bit hasty and in the end mostly unrealistic.

But I don't believe that entitlement has anything to do with that at all. Who entitles whom to grow a plant? What merits entitlement?

Although I do believe that the internet has definitely escalated countless people's obsessions, and of course made my sights set for more difficult and rare species to fulfill my hobby with, I fail to see where this leaves entitlement. As far as I see it, the only people whom are entitled to grow a plant such as Edwardsiana would be the folks at MT. Seeing as they got government entitlement from the authorities in Malaysia. Everyone else that grows an edwardsiana, is plain lucky, unless they got the permit too. I'm going to guess that these lucky people didn't feel entitled to grow that plant, as much as they had just always wanted to, like myself.

My point is that's a really hefty word to throw around when we're discussing a simple hobby.
 
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