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vraev

Carnivorous plant enthusiast
Admin
Hi guys,

Does anyone share my sadness in seeing how nepenthes cultivation is seemingly looming closer and closer towards orchid cultivation? What I mean is the fact on how increasing number of hybrids are being made and those are easier to grow + cheaper + greater availibility.
A perfect example would be trying to find species orchids nowadays. Almost every nursery has more obscure hybrids like "mountain red" or whatever which are complex crosses. Infact, I see nursaries which carry almost nothing else apart from hybrids in the hundreds. Now species of orchids are extremely rare and very expensive: perfect example is plants like Phrag bessae or whatever, P. lowii etc etc.
Nowdays we are seeing the same thing with nepenthes. Look at exotica plants. I don't mean to "undermine" hybrids and their potential...but you can see complex hybrids which are a total different beast in their own. Personally my cultivation of neps is to get a feeling of growing a true representative of the plant I see in the wild.
I guess the challenge is finding two different plants flowering in the same time of the same species.

I would be interested to know what the experienced growers here feel about this.

V
 
I agree with your sentiments. Personally, I just hope that there are enough conservatories and private collectors interested in preserving species to keep the various species alive and distinct. Nep culture is still a relatively young field, so with any luck enough good growers will come along to carry the genus unscathed.
~Joe
 
I agree with you to some degree, but the development of Nepenthes hybrids has been popular since the nineteenth century and paralleled a like development in orchids -- often by the very same people . . .
 
nep culture is about as old as orchid culture....hence the "Victorian Nep hybrids".....and dont know about you guys but every year im finding it easier and easier to get ahold of a larger variety of species orchids......

you are not going to have a true representation of a nep in the wild unless you can grow outdoors in similar conditions........i drool over some photos of neps in the wild and know i aint going to provide the conditions to match that......i aint near the equator, i cant duplicate that light.........
 
I totally agree with you. I really don't want to see nothing but hybrids flying around the market. It does seem like they are getting more and more prevalent too. Often times they are crosses of species I really don't find interesting as well. Some species really need more diversity in their cultivation gene pool and I think it would be worth the work and effort to breed pure species. I'd pay more for the work too.

At the same time, there are hybrids I would totally love to see on the market, or that I could reed myself.
 
have to laugh.......all this talk about hybrids edging out species in the market place and in collections......of the 3 major Nepenthes suppliers.....only one relies heavily on hybrids for sale.........the other two seem pretty entrenched in supplying lots of pure species from various clones........i think you guys can take off your tinfoil hats........
 
have to laugh.......all this talk about hybrids edging out species in the market place and in collections......of the 3 major Nepenthes suppliers.....only one relies heavily on hybrids for sale.........the other two seem pretty entrenched in supplying lots of pure species from various clones........i think you guys can take off your tinfoil hats........

"Tinfoil?" That's U.S. aluminum foil, pal!
 
nep culture is about as old as orchid culture....hence the "Victorian Nep hybrids".....

Yes - I think that orchids are still a somewhat young class of plants, as well. They certainly don't have the thousand-year history that some cultivated plants do. Besides, lots of the work of Victorian-era growers was lost during WWI, right? And there are new species and groups being discovered all the time. It's not young in terms of human lifetimes, but as a discipline in it's own right I think it's far from old.
~Joe
 
  • #10
first yah compare them to orchids.....then they arent the same.....make up your mind......

Orchids and Neps have basically the same cultivation history other than Orchids are more popular but the basic culture for them has come along at about the same rate......only real difference is there is a larger number of orchid species than neps..........there is no risk of us loosing nepenthes species cause everyone focuses on hybrids just like there isnt any legitimate reason to fear loosing pure orchid species to the hybridizers.......there is always a solid portion of the hobby base interested in the pure species.......im one that loves hybrids as much as anyone and ive got more pure species than hybrids,,,,,,,the pure species are just as interesting as any hybrid just as with orchids........and just as with orchids its often the pure species that may need more exacting care cause they dont have the hybrid vigor.......

lots of work from victoria era growers was lost for all kinds of plants due to the World Wars......neps aint special in that right...........
 
  • #11
nep culture is about as old as orchid culture....hence the "Victorian Nep hybrids".....and dont know about you guys but every year im finding it easier and easier to get ahold of a larger variety of species orchids......

you are not going to have a true representation of a nep in the wild unless you can grow outdoors in similar conditions........i drool over some photos of neps in the wild and know i aint going to provide the conditions to match that......i aint near the equator, i cant duplicate that light.........

Personally I don't find that at alll in orchid cultivation. The market here in canada is flooded with hybrids. I like to be able to show someone a plant, give them a nice description of it growing at a certain location in ecuador's rainforests. Something is satisfying when you see a pure species plant where you can say without ambiguiity about its description (for the most part....I understand the problem of complex hybrids that masquerade as species...eg: N. macrophylla in cultivation right now).

Well...you are right in saying that we can never have a true representation of a nep in the wild as natural conditions are near impossible to recreate. But, atleast you could be satisfied that the N. hamata you grow is a type specimen of the species from this particular mountain on Sulawesi. On the other hand, something like an N. (truncata x hamata ) x ( x rokko x trusmadiensis ) just becomes a beast of its own. A creation of man... similarly crafted in idealogy to a seedless watermelon. lol! It was selected for the traits of pitcher size, teeth etc. But, in my opinion it will never carry the mystique of a pure species that has evolved in nature.
 
  • #12
well then your problem is where you live and not whats truely available to the average grower in the US or Europe.........i can get cloud forest orchid species from South America from atleast one US dealer.....there are quite a few major orchid sellers in the US that specialize in pure species.....but you are not going to find species orchids at big box stores just like you aint going to find much in the way of species neps.......or species anything other than cacti....why are hybrids so common and visible with orchid growing? cause they are easier to grow due to hybrid vigor.....but species are easy enough to find if yah want them.......

your trying to pick and choose stuff and stretch the truth to prove your argument.....pure species of any plant tends to fall to the more specialized gardener.......in other words, if i want pure species flowers for my gardens i have to look off the beaten path(been there done that).......dont think there are much of any "pure species" veggies......infact as things go there are a wider variety of pure species available to the CP grower than about any other market share in gardening other than orchids.......and it has nothing to do with them being new to cultivation as most of them have been discovered more than 50 years ago.....some 3 times that
 
  • #14
Hmm? I didn't mean to say orchids were different. At least, not with respect to how old orchid and Nepenthes culture is. I don't think anything I said should imply that, either. What I'm saying is that next to things like roses or Brassicas, orchids and Neps are recently domesticated plants.
As for my comment on the loss of Victorian glasshouses during the wars, I think it detracted both from orchids and Neps. But, judging by the greater diversity of orchids in cultivation, I would make an uneducated guess that the nascent Nep-growing community was hit harder by these losses than orchid growers. Just a guess, though.
~Joe
 
  • #15
Chill rattler! Just Chill!! You don't have to look at every post as a grudge match. These posts are meant for discussions....not arguments that you have to win.

Yeah! I know "Orchids in our tropics". According to wikipedia there are 80 species in the paphiopedilum genus. Heck...I love miniature orchids....especially of the genus masdevillia and lepanthes and the selection is just not enough here locally. It is the same situation with nepenthes. We have only a single nepenthes importer here. Even that importer is not aloof from the expensive charges involved in getting plants...as a result of which, he prefers the cheaper easier hybrids to bring in at a bulk with less emphasis on the enigmatic species. Anyways....price is a different issue.

THe point of this topic is about opinions on what you think is happening to nep cultivation. Do you think species should be remain intact as the main focus and the bug nursaries should probably try to focus their efforts on propogating their species stock rather than use them to make new hybrids thereby diluting the availibility of an already fascinating group of plants.
 
  • #16
do they really not teach critical thinking in schools these days?

As for my comment on the loss of Victorian glasshouses during the wars, I think it detracted both from orchids and Neps. But, judging by the greater diversity of orchids in cultivation, I would make an uneducated guess that the nascent Nep-growing community was hit harder by these losses than orchid growers.

easy answer.....orchids always were and always will be more popular than nepenthes...they were grown by more ppl before, during and after the war..........

do you guys not realize just how specialized our hobby is? just how TINY of a fraction of 1% of the gardening hobby is taken up by CPers......it is idiotic to complain you cant get specialized plants locally......as for the species versus hybrid thing there are MORE species available now than any time in history and its likely to get better, not worse......look at the posts here and on any other CP forum....species are just as popular as any hybrid.....hell lots of species are in higher demand than any hybrid......your original post makes no freaking sence and no thought was put into it before posting......

as for not being able to find species orchids locally...........so? its a 12 hour drive for me to pick up species orchids from a seller, hell its a 12 hour drive for me to pick up neps at a store in person, for either i have to drive across the full length of one state and half of another...like neps not everyone is going to have an orchid grower down the block......yeah i cant buy either at my local nursery but yah know what? couple clicks of a mouse and i can have them here by the end of the week....they are easily available.....

you see more hybrid orchids because they do better at big box stores....live longer on the shelf which makes them easier to sell......just cause you see one thing in stores doesnt mean thats the way it is in the entire hobby.......
 
  • #17
Do you think species should be remain intact as the main focus and the bug nursaries should probably try to focus their efforts on propogating their species stock rather than use them to make new hybrids thereby diluting the availibility of an already fascinating group of plants.

There is only one "big" nursery that is "hybrid crazy" and that is EP, and they also breed pure species for the sake of breeding pure species. The other major Nep vendors are mostly species breeders. Check their websites for pity's sake.

Rattler is correct, pure species Neps are not more than a few clicks away. Hell, it is probably more difficult to find certain hybrids that it is to find any species. I could easily have any Nep species I wanted on its way to me by the end of the day. The same can not be said for any hybrid I want.

I contend that the hybrid "problem" is not perpetuated by the "big" breeders at all but by the hobbyists themselves. Search the forums. 95% of the time when someone has a Nep in bloom it is "Does anyone have anything in flower to cross with so I do not waste my plant?" I think I can count on one hand the number of "I want species specific pollen only" posts I have seen.
 
  • #18
1st - disclaimer(s):
- my specific / detailed knowledge of the Nep market is 'limited' (& that's probably a generous term)
- my concern(s) are more related to whether a species is safely ensconced in cultivation should it disappear from it's natural habitat
Rattler is correct, pure species Neps are not more than a few clicks away. Hell, it is probably more difficult to find certain hybrids that it is to find any species. I could easily have any Nep species I wanted on its way to me by the end of the day. The same can not be said for any hybrid I want.
I would differentiate being able to find a particular species available for sale from whether the species is adequately represented in cultivation. While I won't venture a guess how many specific clones are required to meet this criteria, I suspect that for many species, it is more than can normally be found. In addition with Neps, we have the male/female issue (more than doubling the number of clones needed for viability) coupled with the issue of synchronized flowering (or lack of) - which again effectively increases the number of clones needed to maintain 'viability'.
I contend that the hybrid "problem" is not perpetuated by the "big" breeders at all but by the hobbyists themselves.
Agreed. Without the big breeders (especially within our small niche of a market), whatever issue we have would be exponentially worse.
Search the forums. 95% of the time when someone has a Nep in bloom it is "Does anyone have anything in flower to cross with so I do not waste my plant?" I think I can count on one hand the number of "I want species specific pollen only" posts I have seen.
Again - I agree but even if the hobbyist held out for species pollen, they would likely end up with nothing. Is that better than providing 'mutt' seed to other hobbyists? The issue would seem to be a lack of adequate sized plants (for each species!!) being grown well enough to flower and catch a plant of the opposite gender flowering at the same time. :0o:

- in addition to species viability, there is also the concern of location viability for species with significantly different characteristics in multiple places...
- this topic (for me anyway) doesn't stop with Nepenthes but also carries over into other plants - like Petiolaris dews. Although these dews are not as threatened with oblivion as some Neps (I hope this is true) - finding species (& species/location) specific seeds can be difficult if you eliminate those originating with Lowrie (therefore most of the world's seed of these species come from a single source - who I believe is 60+ years old). There are very few hobbyists who grow this group successfully for any period of time and who also are able to pollinate them and who have enough synchronized blooming to provide pure species (&/or pure species/location) seed. ???
 
  • #19
I would differentiate being able to find a particular species available for sale from whether the species is adequately represented in cultivation. While I won't venture a guess how many specific clones are required to meet this criteria, I suspect that for many species, it is more than can normally be found. In addition with Neps, we have the male/female issue (more than doubling the number of clones needed for viability) coupled with the issue of synchronized flowering (or lack of) - which again effectively increases the number of clones needed to maintain 'viability'.

You make a valid point and one I do not disagree with. However, all I was stating was that, in terms of availability alone and nothing more, species are easy to acquire. Sometimes more so than hybrids when considered on a 1:1 basis.

100,000 plants of bical are more available than 500 plants of a specific hybrid. It does not matter if the bical are all mass replicates of a single clone there are still more of them than the hybrid.

Agreed. Without the big breeders (especially within our small niche of a market), whatever issue we have would be exponentially worse.

I think this is the point Rattler was trying to get at, he was just not articulating it in the same manner.

Again - I agree but even if the hobbyist held out for species pollen, they would likely end up with nothing. Is that better than providing 'mutt' seed to other hobbyists? The issue would seem to be a lack of adequate sized plants (for each species!!) being grown well enough to flower and catch a plant of the opposite gender flowering at the same time. :0o:

Agreed. I personally have no problem with hybrids and feel that people ought to do whatever they want with their plants. I was more stating that if one really wanted to pin a subset of CPers as being hybrid makers then the "big" boys are not the ones to pin the tag on but instead you need to look at the hobby growers cause they are the ones doing it most promiscuously.
 
  • #20
I seem to agree with both sides. While I love some hybrids I have seen on the market, I also believe there is something to be said about the pure species. What I really would like to see is more variation amongst the current clones we have of many plants. I also think there will be more pure species variation in cultivation as the hobby grows. This is part of the reason why I picked up 6 tiny seed grown N. Maximas when I was given the opportunity. Hopefully there will be some good differentiation amongst them as they develop, and I will get a good mix of males and females, so that I can spread the joy. Right now they are only 2 inches across though, so we'll all have to wait. good debate though!
 
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