User Tag List

Informational! Informational!:  0
Likes Likes:  0
Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Nepenthes Nomenclature

  1. #1
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona
    Posts
    2,539
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Nepenthes Nomenclature

    I agree DETHCHEEZ, that it is a very nice Nepenthes, and shouldn't be scorned just because its name is bogus. Unfortunately many CP continue to be given bogus names, when valid names can just as easily be created.

    I believe that, since its parentage is not known for certain, perhaps it wouldn't qualify for grex registry. However, it would certainly qualify for cultivar registration. Single quotes are only used to indicate that a plant is a validly registered cultivar. However, this plant is one of a group of similar, though not identical, hybrid siblings. So only a particular, unique individual would hypothetically qualify for cultivar status. Grex names are not enclosed in punctuation of any kind, just capitalized similar to cultivar names. Grex registry is reserved for all plants originating from a hybrid crossing. The same grex name is applied to all progeny of the same parents. It is similar to a pedigree for animals. See this link for more details.

    Here is an example of an actual grex name: Nepenthes Exotic Dragon

    Here is an example of an actual registered cultivar name: Nepenthes 'Marie'

    Hypothetically a plant can be a registered grex, such as Nepenthes Exotic Dragon, and a registered cultivar, such as the following hypothetical name Nepenthes Exotic Dragon 'Cutting Edge'. A grex name is simply a substitution for a hybrid formula, and cultivar names are detailed descriptions of a particular feature or group of reproducible features. Cultivar names are not locked to any particular parentage or clone, just to the genus. Grex names are basically shorthand for a particular lineage.

    For example Nepenthes [(lowii x sanguinea) x (hamata x aristolochioides)] x edwardsiana], could be registered as a grex. For instance Nepenthes Happy Days. Then someone could potentially select an individual plant or group of plants from this hybrid that exhibit a particular trait or group of traits. Then they could reliably propagate plants with those traits, distribute them and register them as a cultivar with the ICRA as Nepenthes Happy Days 'Royal Delight'. Now you have a plant that is a registered cultivar and derived from a registered grex. But cultivar registration may contain the grex or hybrid information, or not. Cultivar registration is really only concerned with the genus and the cultivar description and standard, not the parentage. So it would be just as accurate to call this new cultivar, N. 'Royal Delight', leaving out the grex name or the hybrid formula if it weren't a registered grex, since that information is not essential for cultivar registration.

    Grex names are basically a pedigree (keep track of lineage), and cultivar names are descriptions of reproducible plant characteristics within a genus (regardless of lineage). They are just tools we humans have developed to help us keep track of and have intelligent conversations about the plants we grow. If we were discussing N. alata, its nice if we each have an actual N. alata plant and not that one of us has N. edwardsiana, mislabeled as N. alata.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 02-12-2011 at 08:40 AM.
    Joseph Clemens
    Tucson, Arizona, U S A

  2. #2
    SirKristoff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Puyallup, WA United States
    Posts
    4,132
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    then its not a bogus name if its a cultivar, Joseph.
    i didnt call it a grex, i simply said that its enclosed in '____' so its listed somewhere.
    im aware of how the grex system works for the most part. and i know there are no forms of punctuation around the name... Nepenthes xBriggsiana is an example that comes to mind... along with several other hybrids

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,672
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Clemens View Post

    Grex names are basically a pedigree (keep track of lineage), and cultivar names are descriptions of reproducible plant characteristics within a genus (regardless of lineage).
    I still believe that a grex offers no benefit in the least. If one wants to keep track of the pedigree, then the plant should be labeled as such; by it's pedigree and nothing else. If a plant sticks out from it's siblings and is unique then it should be upgraded to cultivar level.

  4. #4
    SirKristoff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Puyallup, WA United States
    Posts
    4,132
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well Yann, you can have a cultivar within a grex....

    Nepenthes xBriggsiana 'Peter D. Amato' is an example that ties in with my earlier example....
    however perhaps this is all a discussion for another thread, I will no longer be hijacking this thread to discuss this matter, if it should be discussed further perhaps someone should start a new thread or dig up an old one.

  5. #5
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona
    Posts
    2,539
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Nepenthes "Marbled Dragon" is not a cultivar. Just writing its name as if it were a cultivar name, does not imbue it with cultivar status. It must be officially published and registered to become an actual cultivar. So it is remains bogus, until officially published and registered.

    Apparently, Nepenthes briggsiana, a name apparently proposed for the hybrid between N. ventricosa and N. lowii and incorrectly published as a name for that hybrid (and its latinized form disqualifies it for use as a cultivar name). When that happened there was not yet a grex naming system for Nepenthes, so despite its publication, that name is invalid/bogus, and remains so until someone completes the process of registering the name as a grex for that hybrid. However, it doesn't seem likely that Nepenthes briggsiana will ever become a valid name, however, Nepenthes ventricosa x lowii is still a valid hybrid formula.

    Disclaimer: I had nothing to do with creating or administering the various naming conventions that exist to use with our beloved plants. I simply have to learn how to use them as appropriately as possible, or help to work at changing them, hopefully for the better.

    I do somewhat agree with FReNcH3z, that grex naming, being "shorthand" for hybrid formula, would suit me better if the hybrid formula (no matter how complicated), were used instead. Though it is nice to see representative photographs of the various hybrids and their parents - which the registry system provides.

    Unfortunately nurseries, intentionally or not, are notorious for ignoring proper nomenclature.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 02-12-2011 at 10:31 AM.
    Joseph Clemens
    Tucson, Arizona, U S A

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Alberta Canada
    Posts
    777
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    That's very interesting Joseph and thanks for the clarification.

    dvg

  7. #7
    Aristoloingulamata Dexenthes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Southern Tongass Rainforest, Alaska
    Posts
    3,708
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I understand your passion towards this subject as I am sure you have had to wade through gobs and gobs of uninformed growers and mislabeled plants in your days.

    I don't think that bogus is the right word to use when describing an unregistered plant. Perhaps "unregistered" would be more accurate. Because as we all know, these 'dragons' exist and they are different, and they definitely aren't 'bogus' plants by any means.

    I do not much care for grex names anyway, though. Even if they are registered, it takes away the immediate availability of the plant's lineage. Nurseries and growers might be and usually are more inclined to just call something N. Cool Plant instead of the complex cross that it actually is. For me, I don't really find interest in complex hybrid mutts, so as a grower I find it important to know exactly what is in the plant at all times. It should be a law that all Nepenthes must have their exact lineage labeled with them at all times! But that is the issue that you seem to be working on - getting as many people as possible to accurately know their plants.

    However, I do think that in this particular case, with the Marbled Dragon, perhaps your argument would be better directed towards EP?

    At any rate - keep up the good work, even if you are N. 'extremely nitpicky'
    LOOKING FOR: N. (argentii x bicalcarata) x {[(lingulata x edwardsiana) x (naga x hamata)] x [(klossii x undulatifolia) x (aristolochioides x rajah)]} Growlist: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=124586

  8. #8
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona
    Posts
    2,539
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I use the term, "bogus" because it seems to fit. I once, intentionally propagated and distributed an unidentified Pinguicula plant. I did not know if this plant was a species or hybrid. I had even forgotten where I originally obtained it. I called it by the "bogus" name; Pinguicula (Red One), simply because it was nearly always very red in my growing conditions. I distributed it among many other growers, because I had been unable to get it to bloom and I hoped other growers might get it to bloom, thereby it could be properly identified. BobZ managed to be the first to report having this plant bloom, it turned out to be a Pinguicula laueana clone. Now, Pinguicula (Red One) is just a bogus synonym for Pinguicula laueana.

    With more and more bogus (unregistered grex or cultivar) names being attached to more and more plants, there are already several plants being distributed with the same, unregistered name, though they are not at all the same plants. Such as N. "Big Bertha" [N. ampullaria], and N. "Big Bertha" [N. x hookeriana]. Not unlike the Pinguicula 'Weser' and Pinguicula 'Sethos', being distributed at various garden centers, even though they are not actually the cultivars they are represented to be.

    The official naming systems, if they are used, can help, by eliminating duplicate names being associated with completely different plants and providing a way to help verify that plants match their names.
    Joseph Clemens
    Tucson, Arizona, U S A

Similar Threads

  1. Nomenclature adjustments
    By chezilla in forum General Discussions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-31-2011, 08:38 PM
  2. Nepenthes Nomenclature
    By phissionkorps in forum Tropical Pitcher Plants  (Nepenthes)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-13-2008, 10:17 PM
  3. Nomenclature revisited
    By Joseph Clemens in forum General Discussions
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 09-22-2006, 10:29 PM
  4. Picky nomenclature question
    By SarraceniaScott in forum General Discussions
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-11-2005, 01:40 PM
  5. Nomenclature question, ethically labelling...
    By Tom in forum Butterwort (Pinguicula)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-30-2003, 07:02 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •