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Seed grown N.hamata ? I think not !

  • #21
It was sold to me as "seed grown 07" !!!!!!!!!! Not "cutting of a seed grown"!

What difference does it make? ???
I dont understand the reason for the dismay and anger..

to me, there is no difference between a "seed grown plant" and a "cutting of a seed grown plant"..
its the same plant either way..what am I missing?

Scot
 
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  • #22
Definately looks like a cutting. A seedgrown plant typically implies it is unique and hasn't had any clones made of it. Otherwise, I have a whole room of seed grown nepenthes.

I would definately pose the question to the seller. If the vine still exists, then I don't think it can be considered seed grown any longer and not worthy of a premium for it's uniqueness as it exists in cultivation elsewhere. But it is in limited existence and there is a chance it is female so...

No expert here, just my opinion.

What difference does it make?
I dont understand the reason for the dismay and anger..

to me, there is no difference between a "seed grown plant" and a "cutting of a seed grown plant"..what am I missing?
To me a seed grown nepenthes implies there is a chance it is female. Other than that, I typically prefer clones because clones are usually the very best examples of specimens even though they are usually males.
 
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  • #24
So, the general consensus is that it's a cutting. That was the point. It's not a "seed grown plant", it's a cutting of an already existing plant. Thank you everyone !
 
  • #25
to me, there is no difference between a "seed grown plant" and a "cutting of a seed grown plant"..what am I missing?
Scot

:scratch:

Wouldn't comparing those two phrases sort of illustrate the difference in of itself?
 
  • #26
to me, there is no difference between a "seed grown plant" and a "cutting of a seed grown plant"..what am I missing?

Scot

The difference between the two is that the "seed grown plant" is the plant, as it was, from seed. Meaning that nobody else will have a plant with the exact same sequence of DNA. A cutting of a seed grown plant (which is kind of a stupid phrase, as they are all seed grown) basically means that it is not genetically unique, and some other collector out that has, essentially, the same plant.
 
  • #27
The difference between the two is that the "seed grown plant" is the plant, as it was, from seed. Meaning that nobody else will have a plant with the exact same sequence of DNA. A cutting of a seed grown plant (which is kind of a stupid phrase, as they are all seed grown) basically means that it is not genetically unique, and some other collector out that has, essentially, the same plant.

ah..ok, now I understand..
I never knew it was something desirable among Nepenthes growers to own a totally unique plant..I dont really see that with VFTs or Sarrs, where nearly every plant in cultivation is NOT unique to only one grower, and this is simply the norm, and not even thought about.

I still dont quite understand why anyone really cares about "nobody else will have a plant with the exact same sequence of DNA"..but to each their own! ;)
I guess it could be considered a point of pride or something..hmmm..
never even thought about that until this thread! interesting..

Scot
 
  • #28
ah..ok, now I understand..
I never knew it was something desirable among Nepenthes growers to own a totally unique plant..I dont really see that with VFTs or Sarrs, where nearly every plant in cultivation is NOT unique to only one grower, and this is simply the norm, and not even thought about.

I still dont quite understand why anyone really cares about "nobody else will have a plant with the exact same sequence of DNA"..but to each their own! ;)
I guess it could be considered a point of pride or something..hmmm..
never even thought about that until this thread! interesting..

Scot

Yea apparently nep growers like seedgrown plants alot. As a dionaea grower clones are what im used to hunting down. if its from a seed it doesnt fit the bill.. its cool but it isnt the cultivar so you cant label it that way
 
  • #29
I thank the few of you who knew what they were talking about and for appreciating my situation. The rest, ugh. Just don't reply if you don't know. I don't.
 
  • #30
I bought this as a "seed grown 07" Nepenthes hamata. B.S. !! If this a seed grown plant, I apparently need to learn a little more about the root systems and growing habits of Nepenthes ! I never would have bought it for what I paid knowing it was a cutting ! Give me some educated opinions here before I spazz on this guy.

UGH Against my better judgement I am going to chime in here even though based on later replies it seems you are not wanting anyone to disagree with you. So before I do, I would like to state:
This is not my plant. I don't know who's plant it is and I don't care, I am simply replying because I believe you are incorrect that it is a rooted cutting. I am not going to address any arguements on whether or not a cutting from a seed grown plant is still a seed grown plant or whatever.

Here you can clearly see this is the cut end of a tendril.
<a href="http://s1109.photobucket.com/albums/h434/Nepenthes138/?action=view&current=seedgrownnot001.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h434/Nepenthes138/seedgrownnot001.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Actually I don't clearly see this is the cut end of a tendril (which I think you mean stem but that is neither here nor there). I have grown many nepenthes from seed over the years and after a number of years the lower portion of the original stem dies off as new roots form and grow higher up the stem. This can lead to the bottom looking like it was once the bottom of a cut stem even though it isn't.

The long fat light colored roots don't form quickly on rooted cuttings, it takes years. The other telltale sign is the light colored knobby underground stem, which is more root like than stem like, because it formed from the original tap root and not from buried stem. I have never seen the underground stem from a rooted cutting look like this even after being grown for years and repotted multiple times along the way. The underground stem will still remain looking like the above ground portion even when it turns brown.


These next 2 pics show what looks to me like new growth sprouting from a cutting, tell me I'm wrong.
<a href="http://s1109.photobucket.com/albums/h434/Nepenthes138/?action=view&current=seedgrownnot003.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h434/Nepenthes138/seedgrownnot003.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s1109.photobucket.com/albums/h434/Nepenthes138/?action=view&current=seedgrownnot004.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h434/Nepenthes138/seedgrownnot004.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

I really hope I'm wrong here.

Obviously there was some growth above the current rosette. What happened to it? I don't know. Maybe someone cut the top of the plant off. Maybe it broke off accidently. Maybe it died off.. yes that can happen and happen more frequently than I would like to admit. Particularly with some species over others. From the photos though it looks to me like a basal shoot that formed at or just below the soil surface where the old dead cut leaves are showing. Probably in response to whatever caused the top of the plant to no longer be there. Based on the number of green leaves, it has been growing for some time as well, probably a year or two. So to me it is clear you got the whole bottom portion of a seed grown plant.

Edit:
Oh I also wanted to add that it doesn't appear to be the happiest plant and probably gone through some rough times. The lower leaves are a bit .. hmm off looking.. ie not quite right and the root system is pretty scrawny. So I don't think this plant is in the best of shape which may explain why the main stem or growth point died off as well as much of the original root system.
 
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  • #31
The rest, ugh. Just don't reply if you don't know.

Sorry for replying.
I forgot that you are Supreme Ruler of the Universe and get to tell all of us what we can and cant reply to..(you would think I would remember something like that!)
I will try to remember next time, your Majesty. :hail:

Scot
 
  • #32
That is a plant I sold to him it is not a cutting the growth point is a basal, the main vine was damaged and died, that is not a cutting, the plant was potted rather deep in it's pot, there is no area where the plant was cut off. That is a true basal from the base of the plant. It's not a cutting.

---------- Post added at 07:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:42 AM ----------

And fwiw I will no longer be selling plants to people I don't know because of this, this is flat out ridiculous for him to make this accusations. The white taproot in it's own is proof of this not being a cutting, the 07 does intact refer to the year the seed was germinated. It's not a serial number.
The main vine was damaged and subsequently died and the basal took over. So I removed the original growth point as far as i could without damaging the new growth, for awhile even the basal was looking iffy in health but it has made a remarkable come back in the last few months, so before you "spazz" on me, maybe you should get your facts straight.
 
  • #33
Just gonna try my best to act as a moderator in this situation.

@Kris, first thanks for clearing up the subject for everyone and providing all the information necessary to settle this issue. It appears that this is indeed a genetically unique plant and is seed grown in the strictest sense.

I can see very well where Cthus concern was coming from. Having no way of knowing whether you sent a basal from a living plant, or if it was simply the remainder of the old pant he had no way of knowing. However, he could have definitely been more tactful, either going to you first or simply being much more questioning and not as accusatory.

With al this being said, I would hope that having a true seed grown plant will placate Cthu, and I hope that any matters can be worked out.

Best regards,
Kyle
 
  • #34
Oh he knew before he received it that it was a basal that had taken over after the main vine died... I've got several PMs in log from him where we are discussing the plant.
 
  • #35
:)

SirK

Glad you spoke up, as you did nothing wrong!
In fact, TonyP saw it correctly, didn't he!

Lately, this sort of thing (those who can see it know what I am referring to) has been giving a lot of experienced growers a bad taste in their mouths, and it is getting worse and worse. The "ebb & flow" of TF (the term used when someone felt I needed it explained to me) is sad for me to see, for a lot of the long time, experienced growers are being treated with disrespect. (But Oh! Don't say anything to upset the poor little ones, for they don't know any better!)

And this BS about not posting unless you can agree... where did that suddenly become the rule? This is a forum, and when you post, you are subject to the opinions of others. (What amazes me most is how often the opinions of the inexperienced is preferred over that of the experienced growers who have already proved themselves around here! It seems in the past year or so however, you join the group and then start claiming your own rules right off the bat! How nice!)

I have already hurt some of the fragile egos here, and have also been blatantly disrespected or 'mouthed off to' in reply to offering legitimate help, assistance and even free plants! (Even had a moderator mis-interpret what I wrote him in a PM, and instead of talking it over to clarify things as I would expect in a moderator, he simply jumped to conclusions, cast judgment and chewed me out for things I didn't even say or mean!)

Indeed as was said here, I too am now leaning toward only dealing with those I have traded with in the past, or who have over time, shown their experience, respect and maturity, and will likely be someone worth dealing with. Which is too bad, for it wasn't that long ago that people treated each other with respect, and found out about a questionable situation and gave people the benefit of the doubt until they found out otherwise.

Now-a-days here, people think it 'normal & proper' to jump to conclusions, get all upset... and then try to find people to agree with you so you can feel justified in going and chewing someone out!
Forget about trying to find out the facts of a situation or simply learning about something, before running out and screaming foul! Instead, get a mob riled up and go out and smash heads! :crazy: Wow, what a nice way to handle things! :lac::lac::lac: (As I said, even some moderators seem to see this as a viable way to handle things.)

A lot of us who have been here for a while or have been actually growing plants for more than just a year or two, are getting tired of being misjudged, misunderstood & disrespected when explaining the same thing over and over, even to those people who are too lazy to do even the most basic research themselves! (What do they think the "search" tab is for?)
I am not saying that I or anyone else (experienced or not, young or old) doesn't want to share information and advice, for that is why we come here!
But when a person has to endure snarky remarks and disrespect in exchange for the time they put in offering good advice & information, it just doesn't seem right to me to just let it go on without saying something, ...for fear of offending some immature, rude and obnoxious individual simply because "he is only a kid" or "new at growing and doesn't know any better"!

What ever happened to the value of experience and wisdom, and those who have it? ...and treating others with the respect they deserve? ??? Problem seems to be that a lot of people can't even identify who really knows their stuff from those who don't anymore.

Okay, I have ranted enough :redx: , & have wasted enough of your time. But I had to speak up as it seems that time and again, that there is only the concern to make peace without addressing these things that keep on happening and indeed are forcing a lot of the really experienced growers to begin avoiding this place. If no one says anything, how can they expect it to not keep repeating, I don't know! Half the time when someone around here does something really offensive, disrespectful or wrongly accusive, their posts are erased in the name of "peace", but in the process others can't see what a jerk that person really is! Time and again, certain people even go back and change their own posts, so they hide their tracks and what they said to someone wrongly! Talk about devious! As for me, I don't want to be trading with people like that, as if they are that way in one thing, I wonder... can they be trusted in other ways?

Well, as I said, I have ranted enough! Besides, like others I am just exercising my rights to express my opinion on this open forum! :-D You all can go back to whatever it was that some of you thought you were doing. I am still not totally sure what that was going on here, but I do have a very good idea! Ah, the joys of age and experience! At least there are some besides just getting old... for some of us at least!

It amazes me the issues that people have here, as if it really matters half the time!
Some things are not getting all worked up over, and some are...
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=c3rqPPJPwLg
Where are peoples priorities?
 
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  • #36
Well, shoot guys. I think that this thread has been a learning experience (or reminder) for everyone, myself included.

This isn't the first time that people here on TF have jumped to conclusions and ended up with their foot in their mouth. The CP community is really small... if somebody's not a friend, they're probably a friend-of-a-friend. And as a result, it's thankfully very rare that people will consciously be less-than-honest in trades! So, it's always a good idea to make sure you have the full story before you go pointing fingers at one another.

And this holds true for anything, really. (Like I said, this isn't the first time something like this has happened... not trying to pick on you guys.) Before you get upset and riled up, give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe there's a reasonable explanation!

I really hope both of you can see this is just a misunderstanding, learn from it and move past it. I don't like to see my friends fighting!
 
  • #37
Wow, thanks for clarifying Kris!
 
  • #38
Dang. I knew it being a hamata that it probably came from a reputable grower and there was an explaination. I should of left this thread alone. Ah, well. Such is life. Better go wipe the egg off my face.

My apologies to SK and Cthus for my contribution to this fiasco.
 
  • #39
Yeah when I mean it's from the base of the plant, that really is the base of the plant, the original root system that got a bit torn up when I was taking it out of it's pot, not too badly though, a few of the black roots came off and thats it.
 
  • #40
My apologies to SK and Cthus for my contribution to this fiasco.

Likewise. I didn't mean to assert that the "07" was necessarily a serial number, just that the naming as given was kind of vague. I didn't do a very good job of making my point, which is that people often might mean something different from your initial interpretation and it's a good idea to double-check on the details important to you if there's any wiggle room in that regard. I think this is a very unfortunate misunderstanding and hope I didn't serve to further shake things up.
~Joe
 
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