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Thread: Seed vs TC

  1. #9
    dsrtfox1942's Avatar
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    One thing nobody has mentioned... cost.
    Seed grown neps command a higher price. In some instances a very large premium.

    Example, hamata.

    AW clone shipped to states... around $70 (what I paid)

    Seed grown hamata.... well.... at a minimum of $150

    Also, some species are not available seed grown as of yet.
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    BigBella's Avatar
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    Seed-grown plants present a genetic crap-shoot, for better or for worse -- in terms of size, vigor, and gender (at least in the case of Nepenthes); though, for my money, that genotypic and phenotypic variability is desirable.

    Tissue cultured (cloned -- not, for example, aseptically germinated, seed-grown) plants present a bit of an artificial genetic bottleneck; considering that the overwhelming percentage of TC Nepenthes are male in gender (frankly, I cannot think of any TC female currently on the market), there is little hope for reintroducing variability by crossing those adults. Further, at any given time, there are just a tiny handful of clones on the market -- just over a half dozen or so for Nepenthes hamata and far fewer for, say, N. lowii, N. rajah, N. villosa, and many other desirable species . . .
    “Sì perché l'autorità dell'opinione di mille nelle scienze non val per una scintilla di ragione di un solo . . ."

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  3. #11
    RL7836's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doomsday View Post
    Also, one benefit for SG is that most tc'ers wont sell clones of female and male neps because they dont want everyone breeding them so you cant get female neps of some species... With sg they cant control that.
    This last statement is basically asserting that t/c labs can control gender. I know that many people believe this to be true but I've never heard/seen anything resembling proof (& no, I do not believe that the scarcity of one sex is proof). Unless there is some mechanism within t/c to control gender (or outside t/c to determine it), believing that t/c labs grow out individual clones to adulthood (multiple years) and wait for each to flower before releasing only the ones that have been proven to be male - is bordering on paranoia.

    I gladly look forward to being shown the fallacies of my beliefs and the errors in my grossly insufficient body of knowledge and/or logical assessment protocols.
    Last edited by RL7836; 01-20-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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  4. #12
    caesium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBella View Post
    Tissue cultured (cloned -- not, for example, aseptically germinated, seed-grown) plants present a bit of an artificial genetic bottleneck; considering that the overwhelming percentage of TC Nepenthes are male in gender (frankly, I cannot think of any TC female currently on the market), there is little hope for reintroducing variability by crossing those adults.
    If I recall correctly, all of the BE TC'ed N. spathulata, at least the ones that have been flowered, are female. I may be wrong, but I distinctly remembering a discussion about it a few years ago.

    You make a good point about distinguishing between cloned and aseptically germinated plants. People all too often forget that seed grown doesn't automatically mean that the plant is gonna be better hardened off than a TC clone.
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  5. #13
    Tastes like chicken! Exo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caesium View Post
    If I recall correctly, all of the BE TC'ed N. spathulata are female. I may be wrong, but I distinctly remembering a discussion about it a few years ago.
    Yes...this is true, and one of their aristolocloidies clones is as well.
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  6. #14
    BigBella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caesium View Post
    If I recall correctly, all of the BE TC'ed N. spathulata, at least the ones that have been flowered, are female. I may be wrong, but I distinctly remembering a discussion about it a few years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exo View Post
    Yes...this is true, and one of their aristolocloidies clones is as well.
    Well, I stand corrected; apparently there are now two species of tissue cultured Nepenthes which happen to be female clones; and those two seem to be the exception that proves the rule. Of the current 134 or so species of Nepenthes -- an overwhelming number of which have already entered cultivation -- some two female clones have been made available through micro-propagation.

    Less than two percent; not that terribly impressive . . .
    Last edited by BigBella; 01-20-2012 at 04:35 PM.
    “Sì perché l'autorità dell'opinione di mille nelle scienze non val per una scintilla di ragione di un solo . . ."

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  7. #15
    RL7836's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBella View Post
    Less than two percent; not that terribly impressive . . .
    I doubt that 2% is a fair number as many of those that have come out of t/c labs are not yet near flowering age (AW eddies for example). For that matter, I don't think we've seen a representative sample from many of the SG introductions either.

    To re-state the obvious, there does appear to be a significant bias toward male plants coming out of t/c labs (even if many introductions have either not yet flowered or people have not shared their results publicly) --- why? Is the bias beyond the male/female ratios found naturally?
    All the best,
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  8. #16
    Tastes like chicken! Exo's Avatar
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    Lemme add a few more BE TC females to the list....


    Rajah (apparently one of the 4 is female)

    ampullaria

    Viking

    ventricosa

    spectabilis (bandahara and pangulabao)

    khasiana
    Some days it just isn't worth chewing thru the restraints.

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