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Seed vs TC

C

cps4lif

Guest
I am wanting to get more entrenched into the fascinating world of collecting Nepenthes. In an attempt to build a larger collection I have been to many websites looking for various Nepenthes species that I have an attraction to. My searching has turned up an interesting realization; the vast majority of Nepenthes for sale are label as "TC" or clones. I am not sure if it is the purist in me but I have a natural tendency to want to turn my nose up at the prospect of purchasing a Nepenthes that is not seed grown. What are the pros and cons of seed grown vs. Tc / clone?
 
Oh god. BRace yourself for a fiery debate...
Basically tc clones are all identical (not a bad thing).

Seed grown clones are each genetically different and havea chance of looking different.

The benefit of SG is that you MIGHT get a better looking or more vigorous clone, but with tc you are guaranteed to get when you know you are buying.... Also, one benefit for SG is that most tc'ers wont sell clones of female and male neps because they dont want everyone breeding them so you cant get female neps of some species... With sg they cant control that.
 
I am wanting to get more entrenched into the fascinating world of collecting Nepenthes. In an attempt to build a larger collection I have been to many websites looking for various Nepenthes species that I have an attraction to. My searching has turned up an interesting realization; the vast majority of Nepenthes for sale are label as "TC" or clones. I am not sure if it is the purist in me but I have a natural tendency to want to turn my nose up at the prospect of purchasing a Nepenthes that is not seed grown. What are the pros and cons of seed grown vs. Tc / clone?

I'm certainly no expert hobbyist, I've only been doing neps for a month. But from a scientific standpoint, plants get pollinated and produce seeds so that the weaker strain of that plant dies off over time and the stronger strain's population grows larger, AKA natural selection. If there is some sort of genetic mishap in the mother plant of the TC sample, then it is automatically in the new plant. However, I would assume that the people creating TC are serious about propagating, meaning they probably have a lot of experience, meaning they have an eye for visible genetic mishaps. If there is something majorly wrong in the DNA, the plant would probably die pretty quickly, so it would be rare to get a TC with a major genetic issue.

That's from a very simple scientific understanding, and my best guess. :)
 
I'm certainly no expert hobbyist, I've only been doing neps for a month. But from a scientific standpoint, plants get pollinated and produce seeds so that the weaker strain of that plant dies off over time and the stronger strain's population grows larger, AKA natural selection. If there is some sort of genetic mishap in the mother plant of the TC sample, then it is automatically in the new plant. However, I would assume that the people creating TC are serious about propagating, meaning they probably have a lot of experience, meaning they have an eye for visible genetic mishaps. If there is something majorly wrong in the DNA, the plant would probably die pretty quickly, so it would be rare to get a TC with a major genetic issue.

That's from a very simple scientific understanding, and my best guess. :)

Yea that is true as well. Most tc'ers DO look for only the most vigorous clones to multiply. They also check for viruses and other deformities for particullarly rare plants.
 
There are pluses to both. With TC plants you know what you're going to get. Seed grown is more random and unpredictable. I prefer seed grown plants, but I won't turn down a nice TC plant. The majority od Neps I have are actually seed grown, just by chance.
 
So... My intention is to build up a rather nice collection and grow them to a point of being able to do cuttings and what not, in hopes of being able to trade or with other collectors. With the amount of TC Nepenthes I have encountered, would that not be limiting the amount of genetic diversity in cultivation, making it so that everybody's plants are virtually identical to the other guy? I guess my concern is that I don't want to spend a bunch of time and money on something that will eventually become common further down the road, is this a valid concern? If I decide to go seed grown, is there any recommendations of growers that specialize in selling seed grown Nepenthes?
 
We;; it depends.. All venus fly trap cultivars are genetically identical. And they dont all look the same since growing conditions affect the plant as well. People dont complain that they all havethe same dna... Its all personal preference. With sg neps they are worth more usually but they also cost a good penny more also
 
In my opinion..

The pros of tissue culture:
Uniformity. You always know what you're going to get. They're usually cheaper, especially for rarer species/hybrids. If for some reason you lose a TC plant, you can just buy another and it will have the same traits and gender.

Cons:
There are occasional bad clones where some clones can have minor defects or deficiencies. There is less genetic diversity to choose from when it comes to making your own crosses and the possibility of being limited to one sex making species seed impossible with TC only plants that don't have both male and female clones available.

The pros of seed grown:
There is more genetic and sexual diversity. Seed grown are sometimes hardier since they didn't start life in a test tube sheltered from the elements so some amount of natural selection has taken place from early on.

Cons:
You can never be 100% sure of what you're going to get. This is especially true with complex hybrids. If you purchase a complex hybrid based on a single photo, chances are you will end up with a plant that looks different, sometimes dramatically, for better or worse.

Feel free to add to the list.
 
One thing nobody has mentioned... cost.
Seed grown neps command a higher price. In some instances a very large premium.

Example, hamata.

AW clone shipped to states... around $70 (what I paid)

Seed grown hamata.... well.... at a minimum of $150

Also, some species are not available seed grown as of yet.
 
  • #10
Seed-grown plants present a genetic crap-shoot, for better or for worse -- in terms of size, vigor, and gender (at least in the case of Nepenthes); though, for my money, that genotypic and phenotypic variability is desirable.

Tissue cultured (cloned -- not, for example, aseptically germinated, seed-grown) plants present a bit of an artificial genetic bottleneck; considering that the overwhelming percentage of TC Nepenthes are male in gender (frankly, I cannot think of any TC female currently on the market), there is little hope for reintroducing variability by crossing those adults. Further, at any given time, there are just a tiny handful of clones on the market -- just over a half dozen or so for Nepenthes hamata and far fewer for, say, N. lowii, N. rajah, N. villosa, and many other desirable species . . .
 
  • #11
Also, one benefit for SG is that most tc'ers wont sell clones of female and male neps because they dont want everyone breeding them so you cant get female neps of some species... With sg they cant control that.
This last statement is basically asserting that t/c labs can control gender. I know that many people believe this to be true but I've never heard/seen anything resembling proof (& no, I do not believe that the scarcity of one sex is proof). Unless there is some mechanism within t/c to control gender (or outside t/c to determine it), believing that t/c labs grow out individual clones to adulthood (multiple years) and wait for each to flower before releasing only the ones that have been proven to be male - is bordering on paranoia.

I gladly look forward to being shown the fallacies of my beliefs and the errors in my grossly insufficient body of knowledge and/or logical assessment protocols. :-D :crazy:
 
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  • #12
Tissue cultured (cloned -- not, for example, aseptically germinated, seed-grown) plants present a bit of an artificial genetic bottleneck; considering that the overwhelming percentage of TC Nepenthes are male in gender (frankly, I cannot think of any TC female currently on the market), there is little hope for reintroducing variability by crossing those adults.
If I recall correctly, all of the BE TC'ed N. spathulata, at least the ones that have been flowered, are female. I may be wrong, but I distinctly remembering a discussion about it a few years ago.

You make a good point about distinguishing between cloned and aseptically germinated plants. People all too often forget that seed grown doesn't automatically mean that the plant is gonna be better hardened off than a TC clone.
 
  • #13
If I recall correctly, all of the BE TC'ed N. spathulata are female. I may be wrong, but I distinctly remembering a discussion about it a few years ago.

Yes...this is true, and one of their aristolocloidies clones is as well.
 
  • #14
If I recall correctly, all of the BE TC'ed N. spathulata, at least the ones that have been flowered, are female. I may be wrong, but I distinctly remembering a discussion about it a few years ago.

Yes...this is true, and one of their aristolocloidies clones is as well.

Well, I stand corrected; apparently there are now two species of tissue cultured Nepenthes which happen to be female clones; and those two seem to be the exception that proves the rule. Of the current 134 or so species of Nepenthes -- an overwhelming number of which have already entered cultivation -- some two female clones have been made available through micro-propagation.

Less than two percent; not that terribly impressive . . .
 
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  • #15
Less than two percent; not that terribly impressive . . .
I doubt that 2% is a fair number as many of those that have come out of t/c labs are not yet near flowering age (AW eddies for example). For that matter, I don't think we've seen a representative sample from many of the SG introductions either.

To re-state the obvious, there does appear to be a significant bias toward male plants coming out of t/c labs (even if many introductions have either not yet flowered or people have not shared their results publicly) --- why? Is the bias beyond the male/female ratios found naturally? :scratch:
 
  • #16
Lemme add a few more BE TC females to the list....


Rajah (apparently one of the 4 is female)

ampullaria

Viking

ventricosa

spectabilis (bandahara and pangulabao)

khasiana
 
  • #17
OK, six percent of micro-propagated Nepenthes species currently offer female plants. As an example, of the handful of clones (six or so) that Wistuba offers of N. hamata, I have seen four flowering plants over the years -- each male.

There is also a preponderance of males to females in wild Nepenthes populations; and it is not an artifact of tissue culture. I have heard of various ratios over the years -- everything from 60:40 in favor of males; 75:25; and 70:30. Often in TC, one chooses the most vigorous in the culture. Chances just seem to favor male over female.

I have known of seed-grown batches of several species having reached flowering age (many of my own) -- and they more closely mirror wild populations . . .
 
  • #18
It seems to me that it would actually be a great "selling" benefit to professional growers/propagators/retailers, to propagate specific genders (Male & Females) of the same types of plants, whereby they could then sell these to people looking for a specific plant in a specific gender. (I know there are times I might pay a little more for that option.)

With more people wanting to make their own crosses, as well as being responsible growers concerned about the future of plants, especially of non-hybred, "pure-bred species, it is a wise thing to do!

Many plant & animal species have more available males than females, which makes sense in a way, as many males can pollenate the limited available females. Having more pollen floating around makes a bit of sense actually.

As for me however, I would prefer a 50/50 or more of females, but then that is likely the typical male response! :-D

For myself, I would rather have seed grown plants... most of the time. However in cases where I do want the specific traits of a plant, like the huge traps of a B-52 VFT where the seedlings may often NOT carry on the large traps, I would of course prefer the propagated or TC "clone".
(Although from what I have heard from a few people, there are sometimes still variations that happen when attempting to "clone", so I don't believe it is an "always an exact duplication" sort of situation... and thank God for that!)

One thing wonderful that TC has done for us is to help growers propagate many plants at an extremely high rate, which then makes many plants readily available to the average grower that would normally not be around so freely. That also helps bring the price down greatly.

So while there are great benefits to seed grown plants, TC does have a very beneficial place in this hobby. I can remember years ago when only a handful of plant types were available, and it was a very limiting hobby!
So having seen & experienced both sides of this situation, I find that there are great benefits to be had both ways. I only hope some short sighted person doesn't make some decision that will further limit what is available to us.
For those relatively new to the hobby, I can only say that you have no idea how lucky you are to have the varieties available today that we do.

Well, just my thoughts....


Oh yea, it would be nice to have a list of the specific plants that are being distributed (like what kind of B.E. Ampullaria) that shows which gender they are. Although I realize it could likely change if companies change their stock & re-do their cloning. But for the time being, it might help growers to figure out what plant they may want to purchase to create a potential hybrid.
 
  • #19
Lemme add a few more BE TC females to the list....


Rajah (apparently one of the 4 is female)

ampullaria

Viking

ventricosa

spectabilis (bandahara and pangulabao)

khasiana

There is also a female albomarginata, but I think that one might have defects. When I grew it, it was impossible to get it to make "intermediate"/upper pitchers and the lower pitchers peristome was always sunken inward at the bottom.
 
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