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Thread: Wild collected Nep seed purchase discussions

  1. #41
    Moderator Cindy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dionae View Post
    So, one of your issues is that I might have extra seedlings that i'll kill instead of giving them away?!? You dont know me too well then. I have hundreds of "extra" sarracenia seedlings but I havent killed them or given them away and I wouldnt senselessly kill any extra nepenthes seed. I wouldnt think any grower would want any of my poached seedlings anyway.
    No malice intended as amphirion mentioned so I do apologise. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the mini maxima as an example. What I meant to say is that with so many seeds going around, there ain't many adult plants in collections despite threads showing very good (if not excellent) rates. It does not pertain only to the States...it is worldwide.

    Personally, I hope that besides the nurseries, growers also keep as many varieties/forms/plants as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by amphirion View Post
    @dionae: I don't think Cindy was singling you out. Remember that she's been in this hobby way longer than the both of us, possibly even combined. She was just speaking from her own experience, and she's witnessed this event many times in the past.
    Thanks, amphirion!

    My personal belief after seeing the plants in the wild...grow only the weeds that thrive in my conditions. Anyone care for N. gracilis and N. mirabilis?
    Cindy

  2. #42

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    To the defense of **************** or ricardo, since I haven't read anything from him, has anyone here contacted the guy and verified if he collected the seeds without permits (or if having one is even a requirement under Indonesian law)? Cause until there's evidence that the seeds were illegally collected then people here might just be arguing because of assumptions.

    I don't want to sound technical but we all know that posts in open fora like this could influence the minds of the readers and lead them to form prejudices against the object of the allegations, in this case, ****************. While it is every hobbyist's responsibility to protect the plants in their natural habitat, it is also our responsibility to refrain from accusing anyone of any wrongdoing if it's unsubstantiated because it could cause undue damage to that person's reputation.

    I just want to make it clear that I do not support poaching and illegal collection of seeds. I just want that all sides are heard before making any judgement.
    Last edited by magellan; 02-20-2012 at 05:11 AM.

  3. #43
    Hello, I must be going... Not a Number's Avatar
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    I'm usually not one condemn an eBay seller/listing for outright poaching without knowing more about the seller or situation (i.e. property ownership, local laws etc.) However, I'm sorry to say that these sellers willingness to break International Laws (CITES) and the laws of other countries (Customs, Agriculture) by shipping these in plain envelopes or intentionally falsely declared is a strong indication of which way their moral compass points (towards money). Just think what they save on CITES permits, phyosanitary certificates and tariffs.

    To quote the listings:
    "BUT DON'T WORRY, I WILL DECLARE THIS ITEM AS CRAFTING MATERIAL SO IT
    WILL PASS THE CUSTOM ( IT WORKS TO USA AND ALMOST COUNTRIES )"

    "But don´t afraid, I send seeds in white "bubble" envelope without any declaration and only
    with my personal address and no problem with shipping to all countries till now."
    Even if the seeds are being wild collected legally due to the number of seed being offered it is not being done ethically or in a manner that embraces conservation. Stewart MacPherson points out in the "Future of Conservation" chapter in his recent book "Carnivorous Plants and there Habitats Vol. 2" that due to the length of time that it takes species like Nepenthes and Sarracenia to grow to maturity (i.e. seed producing) that there be enough generations maturing at different times to produce enough genetically diverse seed to keep the populations from declining. These new generations also replace older plants that have died from old age, disease or from predators.
    Grand Hotel... always the same. People come, people go. Nothing ever happens.

  4. #44
    sarracenia lover dionae's Avatar
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    NAN that is not an AMS listing youre quoting from.

  5. #45
    Sphagnum Guru Wire Man's Avatar
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    It's funny that this comes up now. We had a huge volunteer day at Meadowview over the weekend, and a some long time volunteers and former interns came to help. One of them had an idea for a few of us to take a trip to Borneo, another suggested adding Sumatra to the trip, and I suggested the Philippines. If this goes through, we'll be getting permits to sustainable collect seeds (2-3 pods per flower stalk). As this thread proves, there's an interested in legally, sustainably collected seeds. And, as you know, we're very conservation minded and won't be taking huge amounts of seeds. We'll probably be germinating the seeds ourselves, reducing risk of losing any, and selling the established seedlings. Hopefully this happens.

  6. #46
    Aristoloingulamata Dexenthes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magellan View Post
    I don't want to sound technical but we all know that posts in open fora like this could influence the minds of the readers and lead them to form prejudices against the object of the allegations, in this case, ****************.
    And that is one purpose of a forum like this - to expand the knowledge of those who view. Obviously this thread is mostly just viewpoints and beliefs with some facts sprinkled in, but one would expect that the reader will take away what they will from this thread.

    While it is every hobbyist's responsibility to protect the plants in their natural habitat, it is also our responsibility to refrain from accusing anyone of any wrongdoing if it's unsubstantiated because it could cause undue damage to that person's reputation.
    I would like to point out that **************** was never actually formally accused (at least by myself). In fact it says it all in this thread's name: Wild Collected Nep Seed Purchase. Ebay, albermarle, or even legal permits are not mentioned. This is really a discussion about buying wild seed and whether that is the right thing to do under any circumstance. I'm of the opinion that it is not. The seeds of wild plants are so valuable ethically and biologically that I think that should any have to be collected they should all be germinated in the most professional facilities possible and then if need be the grown out plants should/can be sold or traded.

    I just want to make it clear that I do not support poaching and illegal collection of seeds. I just want that all sides are heard before making any judgement.
    That's the thing: I'd be interested in hearing both sides of this debate too. I'm rather surprised actually that these ebay vendors who sell so much seed of these fascinating plants aren't also then concerned with their germination or indeed the hobby culture as a whole.

    I've not seen any posts here or in other forums from supposed ebay vendors. Then again it's not like I have been watching like a hawk.

    But if I were collecting seeds legally and really thought that what I was doing was right, I would certainly be involved with the community that I was selling to. I would be devoted to making sure that only the best and most competent growers get access to some of these rarer seeds, or that less knowledgeable people get all the information necessary to properly germinate them.
    LOOKING FOR: N. (argentii x bicalcarata) x {[(lingulata x edwardsiana) x (naga x hamata)] x [(klossii x undulatifolia) x (aristolochioides x rajah)]} Growlist: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=124586

  7. #47
    i dont do pots. amphirion's Avatar
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    " You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya
    +growlist
    +petiolaris drosera going dormant?
    +picture thread

  8. #48
    BigBella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexenthes View Post
    That's the thing: I'd be interested in hearing both sides of this debate too. I'm rather surprised actually that these ebay vendors who sell so much seed of these fascinating plants aren't also then concerned with their germination or indeed the hobby culture as a whole.
    I have spoken to a number of seed sellers with (and without) permits over the years, both in the US and abroad; and their real interest simply lies -- no mystery here -- with the selling of seed; and that the eventual buyer has the sole, ethical responsibility of determining whether or not to purchase seed of "questionable origin," and of both germinating and maintaining the eventual plants. The ongoing assumption here is that the purchaser has sufficient enough interest in the product, if he is already willing to pay handsomely for rare seed, and to wait weeks for an envelope from Saigon or some malarial swamp in Micronesia.

    Without defending the practice of illegal collection by any means (and I am certainly not), why would anyone in their right mind face the judgmental ****** Sturm that this thread has become -- both here or on allied sites -- often by those very same people who will drop hundreds, if not more, on rare seed-grown plants, without any real consideration given to their origins? Judging from the number of queries I have received on how to germinate Nepenthes seeds, purchased from "popular online auction sites," there is no small amount of hypocritical hand-wringing involved here.

    Without naming names, some of the most prestigious nurseries, the world over, have had past and ongoing issues with the "provenance" of their seeds and plant materials -- some well-known growers even being barred from entering particular countries . . .
    “Sì perché l'autorità dell'opinione di mille nelle scienze non val per una scintilla di ragione di un solo . . ."

    -- Galileo "Biff" Galilei

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