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Thread: Wild collected Nep seed purchase discussions

  1. #49
    Tastes like chicken! Exo's Avatar
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    I agree.....glass house and all that....
    Some days it just isn't worth chewing thru the restraints.

    My growlist: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...255#post961255

    Video of my birth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xc5wIpUenQ

  2. #50
    Aristoloingulamata Dexenthes's Avatar
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    Well it would appear that there is some explanation coming from ****************, copy/pasted from ebay:

    Due to some questions about this item in the future,i will give the details of this item.

    Q: Are this seeds harvested illegally in the protected area or not?

    A: We do not harvested in the protected area,we always avoid unlawful action.we harvested this outside of the national park or protected areas that against governmental regulations.the habitat is a local tribe's land.We only harvested seeds not plants.pitchers being cut for sample,and take some several cuttings for them to grow.


    Q: So where do we harvested this?

    A: Go to Sihanjung town and try to find some mountains there and make some survey of these species.


    Q: What about conditions in the habitat? are they in threatened condition?

    A: Luckily,the habitat are extremely safe,the mountain where these species live are sacred mountain by local tribe.they're saved by local rules that forbid travellers or foreigners entry the location with no permit from the elders.need at least hundreds of usd for foreigners to go there for 1 day guide.in the habitat found abundantly hundreds of seed pods' stalks that will ripe within 2 weeks,but we take it properly not for more than 4 stalks of pods.


    Q: How many pods in 1 stalk?

    For Jamban,can carry from 10 to 20 pods.For Lingulata can carry from 20 to 25 pod
    Worth noting is that the title says N. lingulata seeds whereas the body of the post explains that they are in fact N. jamban seeds.
    LOOKING FOR: N. (argentii x bicalcarata) x {[(lingulata x edwardsiana) x (naga x hamata)] x [(klossii x undulatifolia) x (aristolochioides x rajah)]} Growlist: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=124586

  3. #51
    i dont do pots. amphirion's Avatar
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    @Dex: not really.... jamban and lingulata are sympatric.
    wiki:


    Quote Originally Posted by Wire Man View Post
    It's funny that this comes up now. We had a huge volunteer day at Meadowview over the weekend, and a some long time volunteers and former interns came to help. One of them had an idea for a few of us to take a trip to Borneo, another suggested adding Sumatra to the trip, and I suggested the Philippines. If this goes through, we'll be getting permits to sustainable collect seeds (2-3 pods per flower stalk). As this thread proves, there's an interested in legally, sustainably collected seeds. And, as you know, we're very conservation minded and won't be taking huge amounts of seeds. We'll probably be germinating the seeds ourselves, reducing risk of losing any, and selling the established seedlings. Hopefully this happens.
    that's definitely great news, as im betting meadowview has the means to keep and cultivate these plants. I strongly suggest you keep at least 25 individual plants and raise them up until you find breeding stock pairs. maybe 2 females, 5 males, and release the remainders. this way you get a steady, sustainable source of seedlings. would be good if you can start up a TC lab too. remember to keep location data too!
    " You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya
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  4. #52
    Aristoloingulamata Dexenthes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amphirion View Post
    @Dex: not really.... jamban and lingulata are sympatric.
    wiki:



    This I know, he even explains it in his post.

    I guess what I was getting at is that he failed to even write a separate description for the two species.
    LOOKING FOR: N. (argentii x bicalcarata) x {[(lingulata x edwardsiana) x (naga x hamata)] x [(klossii x undulatifolia) x (aristolochioides x rajah)]} Growlist: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=124586

  5. #53
    Not Growing Up! GrowinOld's Avatar
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    Oh Brother!

    Oh, collecting with a piece of paper that says you have permission is
    different from collecting without the piece of paper?
    Legal BS aside, taking is taking,
    and if the person that takes is using good judgment, then less damage is certainly done.
    But the "permission slip" in no way guarantees that someone will use good judgment!

    What happened to people's common sense?

    So we can get all upset here when one local guy goes & takes some seed,
    but when a whole group of people from some other country, comes in to take some for themselves,
    then that is somehow alright simply because they have a piece of paper/permit?!

    Wow, history is full of this sort of "politics" & ordained permission!
    Selling, growing, whatever is done.
    Having the plants growing in a private collection often means doom or being sold off in time anyway!
    I have had a Nep growing for over 20 years, and it amazes me that it somehow impresses people or that they don't believe it. 20 years is NOT that long kids! Especially when compared to plants growing in the wild!

    I am sorry, I just don't get the difference. Is gathering seed to grow (hopefully) in ones own collection or to trade any different than someone taking & selling the seed to someone who is going to grow it in "their" collection?

    So the guy makes money & perhaps feeds himself or his family, or buys underwear or whatever. What is the difference?

    Is it better to spend a ton of money, ride in a plane/bus/car to get there & take the seed yourself! Use extra fossil fuel, polluts the environment, have a dozen people ::: trample up there instead of one person...
    Simply because a piece of paper says you can do it!
    Sorry, I don't see how that is somehow better.
    Perhaps I am missing something?
    (I am not suggesting I am for or against collecting from the wild, but I don't see the real difference here where it actually makes a difference. That "permit" doesn't in any way guarantee that the people involved will do anything more "righteous or noble" then someone without that paper!

    (Likely I will simply be upsetting some "entitled" & enlightened people who are somehow seeing themselves as better able to do things than anyone else.) I still find those people who purchased some seed from questionable sources at no more fault than those who have condemned them for it & now feel "right" in going up there & doing the exact same thing!


    Again, I am not suggesting I am FOR the guys collecting illegally. I am just suggesting that going there & taking seed is going there & taking seed. And to throw stones at one person for doing it & justifying your disgust with what was done, is actually not much different than the noble endeavor to appoint ourselves better able to handle the situation & do more good with the results.
    As was said at the end: "....and selling the established seedlings".

    How nice!
    So people here jump down Dionae's throat for buying some seed, but it will be okay & he will have our blessing if we go there & take seed, grow plants & then sell them to him ourselves!
    Oh brother!
    Unbelievable!
    So tell me... in the long run... how is that any different?

    Just what that place needs, more people going there to collect seed!
    That will make everything great!
    And how good we can feel about ourselves, that we did something the "right" way,
    and not like those other "bad" people!

    Count me out!
    Experience is the best teacher. At least it used to be.
    But then, common sense isn't so common anymore, is it.


    http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=113866

  6. #54
    Aristoloingulamata Dexenthes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Griffin View Post
    I am not familiar with what permits are needed over there to collect wild seed, or if permits are needed at all.
    What are the rules?
    I made a major mistake in my initial wet blanket comment that got this thread started by mentioning permits. According to ****************, who's word I will take on the matter (rather blindly, I might add) permits are not required to collect seed where he collects. And his short Q and A session seems to make the case that he is cataloging new populations of species that have not yet been found before.

    That certainly sounds nice enough, though I wish I had heard about his expeditions through a recreational pathway before a commercial venue.

    That is also just one vendor's word out of three or so that do such things.

    Regardless, I feel the real debate here (for me anyway) is still just as the thread title says: buying of wild Nepenthes seed.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrowinOld View Post
    Oh, collecting with a piece of paper that says you have permission is
    different from collecting without the piece of paper?

    Is it better to spend a ton of money, ride in a plane/bus/car to get there & take the seed yourself! Use extra fossil fuel, polluts the environment, have a dozen people ::: trample up there instead of one person...
    Simply because a piece of paper says you can do it!
    Sorry, I don't see how that is somehow better.
    Perhaps I am missing something?
    (I am not suggesting I am for or against collecting from the wild, but I don't see the real difference here where it actually makes a difference. That "permit" doesn't in any way guarantee that the people involved will do anything more "righteous or noble" then someone without that paper!

    Just what that place needs, more people going there to collect seed!
    That will make everything great!
    And how good we can feel about ourselves, that we did something the "right" way,
    and not like those other "bad" people!
    These are good points and I for one also don't see much virtue in the group trip to the tropics to go collect the seeds.

    This debate is so complex, I just don't know anymore.

    Going there and collecting seed is indeed wasteful in comparison to having a local do it. And one might argue that the entire process of CITES is in some ways over-bearing and bureaucratic.

    However I am almost made ill by ebay being the source by which these locals seemingly unceremoniously sell these seeds to the slobbering West.

    And BigBella's comment about prominent growers and nurseries being involved in this
    behavior murks these waters even further.

    Perhaps indulging ourselves in the cultivation of these plants at all is a barbarous and unfortunate activity, one that does more damage to the idea of these plants than it does good?

    But then again that is the dilemma of being human and that is the affect that we have on the majority of the amazing and beautiful life forms that we encounter.

    On a lighter note I have now decided what the topic of my final project will be for Anthropology 312: Humans and the Environment.
    Last edited by Dexenthes; 02-22-2012 at 02:08 PM.
    LOOKING FOR: N. (argentii x bicalcarata) x {[(lingulata x edwardsiana) x (naga x hamata)] x [(klossii x undulatifolia) x (aristolochioides x rajah)]} Growlist: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=124586

  7. #55
    Not Growing Up! GrowinOld's Avatar
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    All you have to do is look thru man's history...
    the LONG one!
    We may be the "smartest & most developed/advanced as far as mental capacity,
    but we are also the most destructive & vile.
    With great power comes great abilities, whether for good or bad.

    We can harness nuclear powers to create electricity to power a country,
    or use the same powers to virtually destroy it.

    We create Kings & political leaders & allow them to guide & control us for the greater good,
    (as if they are somehow better able to tell us what to do than we are)
    but the abuse of that power leads to the worst times in history!

    -> Not all leaderships have been of our choosing, as many were imposed upon us!
    And THAT is one of the reasons I fully support gun ownership & access!
    We should NOT be subject to such tyranny!
    (Those opposed to allowing people to own/have guns should wake up to the fact that such situations are just as possible now as they were in the past.)

    In fact if you want a good wake-up call to that fact, try reading some of the quotes of the people who helped found this country.
    They knew about liberty, freedom & the illusion of security "given" in exchange for them
    And they knew about controlling governments & the oppression that comes from them.
    And those who can see will realize that the things those men were concerned about happening,
    are actually happening in this day & age!

    History is full of these things that man does to himself, and indeed history repeats itself!
    (It is the nature of some men to control others, judge & condemn them & to desire power & wealth over others.) Thankfully, not all men!

    We may be considered by some to be the most "advanced" species on this planet, but we often don't act like it.
    My bet is on the dolphins! They don't pollute & abuse their environment like we do!

    By the way, aside from habitat destruction, it is US the hobbiests & collectors, that are entirely responsible for the demise of many CP's. If there were no interest in these plants, no one would be collecting & selling their seed & plants. They would have no value more than any other unremarkable plant.
    We don't worry when weeds are destroyed. We don't sell dandelions on ebay! No one cares if some weed goes extinct!
    Experience is the best teacher. At least it used to be.
    But then, common sense isn't so common anymore, is it.


    http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=113866

  8. #56
    Sphagnum Guru Wire Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amphirion View Post
    that's definitely great news, as im betting meadowview has the means to keep and cultivate these plants. I strongly suggest you keep at least 25 individual plants and raise them up until you find breeding stock pairs. maybe 2 females, 5 males, and release the remainders. this way you get a steady, sustainable source of seedlings. would be good if you can start up a TC lab too. remember to keep location data too!
    We definitely have the means to properly grow lowland seedlings. In fact, we have some seedlings from captive grown N. truncata (only 3 have survived deflasking) growing very strongly in the greenhouse right now. That's pretty much the plan we would be taking, keeping the seedlings until we find the most robust specimens and breed those, with a good male - female ratio. Mike has a serious highland chamber which we could raise the highland seedlings in (Mike has done this several times very successfully). Depending on how long I keep my apartment, my windowsill is perfect for growing intermediates (Southeast exposure, and it's huge)! There's a TC lab at a nearby university, and Nate is doing extensive work with TC. If this trip actually happens everything falls into place perfectly!

    You know how conservation minded we are. I would be beating myself up for years if we didn't record location data! Just about everything I collect has extensive location data. My mind just works that way, almost obsessive about keeping things organized. I have to know where my plants come from.

    I think this plan would help a lot with the points GrowinOld brought up. We come from a reputable conservation organization and would not be able to sleep at night if we did anything illegal, or that would negatively impact in situ reproduction. We've been taught the importance of conservation for so long, and have seen why it's important, so customers could rest easy knowing they've come from a responsible source.

    On a side note, I did not know N. lingulata was that small!!! I think I like it even more now.

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