Hot Highlanders

[Nepenthesis]

In the Chatbox, I was told that 85F is too high for most highlanders. That became apparent to me when it got into the mid eighties. The pitchers on my N. boschiana x mira and my N. jacquelineae wilted. All of the other highlanders are as normal.

Just curious about what highland species can take cool nights and warm days. If you know any, just throw them at me. I'm also interested in intermediate species.

Temps are usually between 50-55F at night, but can get up to 60F... This is with the greenhouse heated on the coldest of winter nights. Temps range from 80-90F during the day at the absolute hottest, but will stay around 75F on a cool day.

The reason I'm not growing LL... I rely on high humidity at night since it gets down to around 30% during a few hours of most days. If I run the heater, even to keep my highlanders warm enough, it drops the humidity significantly. To heat LLs on winter nights would be like... death by humidity deprivation lol. I'm making the decision that highlanders and intermediates that can deal with warmer temperatures during the day and cold temperatures at night are the best for me.

 

[hcarlton]

Most highlanders, once acclimated to the conditions, should do well in your conditions. the only ones which may have problems are the true ultra-highlanders, which always need only warm days and cold nights. I know N. jacquelineae is not very heat-tolerant, and if days are hot, nights must be cold, and mira is rather high up in elevation as well. However, you conditions should suit most easier highlanders and just about all intermediates there are.

 

[Nepenthesis]

Most highlanders, once acclimated to the conditions, should do well in your conditions. the only ones which may have problems are the true ultra-highlanders, which always need only warm days and cold nights. I know N. jacquelineae is not very heat-tolerant, and if days are hot, nights must be cold, and mira is rather high up in elevation as well. However, you conditions should suit most easier highlanders and just about all intermediates there are.

It's weird. My N. boschiana x mira, which should be an intermediate cross, has wilted pitchers (just extremely flimsy) and lids that droop down into the pitcher itself. Another intermediate, my N. vogelii, has wilted pitchers too. However, this is only during the 80s of the day. Once the temperature drops and the humidity rises, they become erect again and the pitchers become less flimsy. I'm just surprised by this because my ultra highlander (N. singlana) has hard pitchers and erect lids... It doesn't make sense. Perhaps they're still settling in, but I have a feeling its temperature because they only act up during the warm days. It would make sense that the intermediates would be happy in the climate.

Are there any intermediate/highlands Nepenthes that will do especially well in my conditions?

 

[hcarlton]

Do remember that humidity drops as temperature rises. The wamrer the air, the more water it holds. So, the warmer the air, the more water you have to add to the air.

 

[CreatureTom]

Any of the usual hardier species and hybrids like ventricosa and truncata tend to be more heat tolerant. In my small collection Lowii x Boschiana, Veitchii x Platychila and Robcantleyi are the main warmth lovers.

 

[Whimgrinder]

It's weird. My N. boschiana x mira, which should be an intermediate cross, has wilted pitchers (just extremely flimsy) and lids that droop down into the pitcher itself. Another intermediate, my N. vogelii, has wilted pitchers too. However, this is only during the 80s of the day. Once the temperature drops and the humidity rises, they become erect again and the pitchers become less flimsy. I'm just surprised by this because my ultra highlander (N. singlana) has hard pitchers and erect lids... It doesn't make sense. Perhaps they're still settling in, but I have a feeling its temperature because they only act up during the warm days. It would make sense that the intermediates would be happy in the climate.

Are there any intermediate/highlands Nepenthes that will do especially well in my conditions?

The bigger question is how much more do I have to do to engineer a more Nepenthes-friendly grow space?, rather than asking which plants will tolerate less-than-optimal conditions.

30% humidity at 85F is very low for Nepenthes. This is the reason your plants are wilting. If you want a simple solution, just drag a garden hose into the GH and attach a fogging nozzle. You can aim it at knee height and let it go full blast and it will raise humidity significantly AND lower the temp by 5 degrees or more.

See: http://www.agriculturesolutions.com/Spray-Nozzles/Fogg-It-Nozzle-0.5-Gallons-Per-Minute.html

Any garden center worth its salt will have at least one form of this nozzle in their inventory. If one isn't enough, get a "splitter" and attach two. This is a very cheap (and quite effective) way to increase relative humidity.

 

[lance]

ya... the humidity is the real problem here. I suggest using one of those ^

 

[BigBella]

Provided that there is a significant temperature drop at night, I have never had a heat-related issue with highlanders or ultra-highlanders -- including N. hamata, N. macrophylla, N. jacquelinae, N. edwardsiana, among others; and even though I live in a temperate part of the country, many of my seedlings have regularly experienced late Spring and Summer Tbs in the 29˚C (85˚F) -- especially those under lights and in germination trays.

The nighttime Tb drops cannot be stressed enough; and some species, such as N. villosa will stop growing with sustained lows above 11˚C (52˚F) . . .

 

[Crofthulhu]

Weird that your jacq wilted.. and sad, sorry about that, it always sucks when that happens.

My jacquelineae sits daily in 80F sometimes on hot days 85F, and has never wilted. It's actually growing twice as fast since removing it from it's windowsil, which was a constant 70F except for when the window is cracked at night.

 

[Nepenthesis]

The humidity goes back to around 90% at night. I believe Lance said in another thread of mine that lower daytime humidity isn't a problem as long as the nighttime humidity is high. Or were you referring to higher daytime humidity rather than the 30%? I can do nights in the 50s and high 40s with no problem at all throughout the entire year.

The swamp cooler does a really good job at raising the humidity, but it doesn't cool enough (actually at all) to where I can leave the door closed. If I leave the greenhouse door closed on a warm day, it can get in the 90s or 100s. On a cooler day I do leave it closed.

With the swamp cooler on and the door open, the humidity is about 50-60% on a hot day like today. I put the swamp cooler on a timer to turn on at 1:00, but maybe I should make that 12:00 since that is when it starts to get warm.

I just filled it up with more water and it humidifies and cools more efficiently, so maybe I'll have to fill it all the way up before I go out in the morning.

It was about 90F today and the plants are alive. The new pitchers on all of the other plants are just fine and still forming.

 

[Tony Paroubek]

Humidity goes down in the day as the air warms up yes. That is normal. Too low though and it can cause problems with plant growth.

What kind of swamp cooler are you using? What's the outside air temperature and humidity? and Why is it on a timer and not a thermostat like it should be?

I think you really need to step back and take a look at how things are setup and how they are supposed to function.

 

[31drew31]

I noticed in one of your pictures the swamp cooler isn't drawing air from outside but just recycling the air in the greenhouse. This basically defeats the purpose and is probably why your not seeing much of a difference in temperature.

 

[Nepenthesis]

Humidity goes down in the day as the air warms up yes. That is normal. Too low though and it can cause problems with plant growth.

What kind of swamp cooler are you using? What's the outside air temperature and humidity? and Why is it on a timer and not a thermostat like it should be?

I think you really need to step back and take a look at how things are setup and how they are supposed to function.

This is the swamp cooler I'm using... http://www.air-n-water.com/product/Sumo-J.html

The outside air temperature today was almost 90F, and I left the greenhouse door open because of that. Usually its in the mid seventies or low eighties. Humidity drops to around 30% during the day, then goes back up to 90% at night, just like my greenhouse.

The swamp cooler is on a timer so that its running during the hottest parts of the day. I haven't gotten a thermostat yet, because I would only need one for the swamp cooler. I really need a humidistat more than a thermostat because the swamp cooler doesn't cool much, it just humidifies, which isn't what I wanted it to do. But still, I haven't found one to use yet. I find it more convenient to leave it on a timer, and since I know when it starts to get warm during the day or when the humidity starts to drop, I can just set it to the time I want it to come on and it humidifies and cools a bit more me.

---------- Post added at 04:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------

I noticed in one of your pictures the swamp cooler isn't drawing air from outside but just recycling the air in the greenhouse. This basically defeats the purpose and is probably why your not seeing much of a difference in temperature.

There's no place to hook it up to a hose to run outside... I guess that is where I screwed up pretty much... :-(

I'd have to cut a hole in one of the panels to get it to draw air from outside... Kinda worried about messing up on that.

EDIT: Just checked it out and its in a position where I can cut a hole in the panel to make it draw air from the outside. Or better yet, I can take the whole panel out and some how cover the area missing the panel and leave an opening to the outside. I'll have to work something out I guess.

 

[Tony Paroubek]

Basically what Drew said.. a swamp cooler for a greenhouse MUST draw outside air to be really effective. Also there must be a place for the warm air to escape (ideally furthest from the cooler) or again you will have problems. Really they need to be sized for the amount of cooling needed as well. Not sure how much cooling you will get with such a small unit trying to battle the sun beating down on a transparent sealed structure! Guess if you can get it working more efficiently it will deffinately be a plus.

A humidistat would be ok but not my first choice, it should really be set on a thermostat since cooling is it's primary goal. If I couldn't do that then I would just keep it on the timer and set it for the hottest hours of the day instead of a humidistat. It is possible to be overly hot and humid.. in which case a humidstat will not trigger it to come on.

You might be better off and just buying an automated misting system on a humidistat and an exhaust fan instead of trying to rig up this swamp cooler which is not really designed for a greenhouse application?

 

[Nepenthesis]

Basically what Drew said.. a swamp cooler for a greenhouse MUST draw outside air to be really effective. Also there must be a place for the warm air to escape (ideally furthest from the cooler) or again you will have problems. Really they need to be sized for the amount of cooling needed as well. Not sure how much cooling you will get with such a small unit trying to battle the sun beating down on a transparent sealed structure! Guess if you can get it working more efficiently it will deffinately be a plus.

A humidistat would be ok but not my first choice, it should really be set on a thermostat since cooling is it's primary goal. If I couldn't do that then I would just keep it on the timer and set it for the hottest hours of the day instead of a humidistat. It is possible to be overly hot and humid.. in which case a humidstat will not trigger it to come on.

You might be better off and just buying an automated misting system on a humidistat and an exhaust fan instead of trying to rig up this swamp cooler which is not really designed for a greenhouse application?

Thanks for the reply.

I'll definitely get it hooked up where it is drawing air from outside then, however that will work. I'll probably have to cut a panel though. There are three air intakes on the swamp cooler, two on the sides and one of the back. I would be hooking the one on the back up to the outside air, and if that doesn't draw enough from the outside, I will cover up the side intakes. I tested filling with water from the top port (I usually turn the unit around and fill from the back) and it worked out, so that is what I'll have to do since I won't be able to turn it around once hooked up to the outside. I'll get some pictures just in case anyone else has input. I'll probably get the job done this weekend.

If hooking it up to the outside air works out and it does cool it off a lot better, then I will purchase the thermostat I had in mind. It turns on at 78F and off at 72F. Not very fancy, but rather cheap and convenient.

---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------

So as you can probably tell, the way my mind works is that I choose the most inefficient way. This is what I'm thinking of doing...

Cutting a hole here and using foil tape (it made my greenhouse water-tight) to make a little air duct connecting the intake to the outside air...

Here is the panel that would be cut...

 

[Tony Paroubek]

Kinda hard to tell from the photos but it looks like the front face projects forward a little bit where the controls and blower exit are? Maybe instead you could put the unit on the outside and cut a hole that will allow you to put that small front section through into the greenhouse? You would need to protect the unit I guess from the elements if it was outside but if you only have the back drawing air from outside that will probably cause the unit to draw more through the sides, and covering the sides up will cause a considerable drop in air flow by restricting the input.

 

[Nepenthesis]

Kinda hard to tell from the photos but it looks like the front face projects forward a little bit where the controls and blower exit are? Maybe instead you could put the unit on the outside and cut a hole that will allow you to put that small front section through into the greenhouse? You would need to protect the unit I guess from the elements if it was outside but if you only have the back drawing air from outside that will probably cause the unit to draw more through the sides, and covering the sides up will cause a considerable drop in air flow by restricting the input.

The pics are looking at it from the back. The front has the blower and the controls and the top and back have filling holes.

Don't think I'll be able to keep it outside the greenhouse. After having my friend's greenhouse catch his house on fire due to electrical malfunctions, anything that involves risk I'm kinda out on. I'd much rather have it inside the greenhouse.

It should be drawing a lot from the back still to add new air into the greenhouse, even with the sides drawing the humid air of the greenhouse. I think?

 

[Tony Paroubek]

I meant the photo from the link.. but no matter.

I have no idea how much it will help to have just the back exposed to the outside. Guess it's better than nothing. Don't forget though that if you are pulling outside air in, you need a place of at least equal size to let the inside air out. Might be enough to just leave the door slightly ajar.

 

[Nepenthesis]

I meant the photo from the link.. but no matter.

I have no idea how much it will help to have just the back exposed to the outside. Guess it's better than nothing. Don't forget though that if you are pulling outside air in, you need a place of at least equal size to let the inside air out. Might be enough to just leave the door slightly ajar.

Yeah, leaving the door open should work. When it rains, it doesn't come in through the door when open, so that will work out!

 

[mcmcnair]

this guide has really helped me a lot, and so far it has held true for me. http://www.michaelkevinsmith.com/ne...titudinal-Distribution-Temperature-Chart.html