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NemJones

I Am the Terror Of the Night!
Hello Everyone. I have decided that I need to add a couple more neps to the collection and I would like a little more help from Terraforums.
First off, I was looking at Nepenthes Truncata. However, I also found one listed under Nepenthes Pasian Truncata (tissue cultured from borneo). Is there any difference? (Im looking to get the larger of the species, as they will catch mice.)

Next I was looking at trying my hand at some Nepenthes Aristolochioides seeds.
I was also looking for Nepenthes Spathulata, however it seems nobody has them in stock. How are these and how well/fast do they grow?

If anyone can offer info about any of these species, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
 
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Truncata paisan is a fairly easy plant like most truncatas, it probably would prefer intermediate temperatures. As for aristo seeds, you shouldn't bother mainly because aristo is a very difficult ultra highlander and growing from seed usually takes a few years before you see any satisfactory results. n. spathulata Is also easy! You might want to try one of its hybrids if you can't find one for sale, spathulata x glabrata is a nice one.
 
As for aristo seeds, you shouldn't bother mainly because aristo is a very difficult ultra highlander and growing from seed usually takes a few years before you see any satisfactory results.
Plus the fact that most seeds are poached from the wild & likely to be non-viable anyway. If you want to grow the species, get a TC clone from BE or Wistuba - as that doesn't hurt native populations.
 
Plus the fact that most seeds are poached from the wild & likely to be non-viable anyway. If you want to grow the species, get a TC clone from BE or Wistuba - as that doesn't hurt native populations.

PLUS the fact that N. aristolochioides seeds are being poached from a tiny population in the wild that is now considered critically endangered -- that means the population is already so small that it is no longer self-sustaining. Buying poached seeds of such an endangered species is to be discouraged - period. (Unconscionable is the word I would use) Please, please do not buy N. aristolochioides seed poached from the wild!

That said, N. aristolochioides is a very challenging species and will not tolerate deviation from a very limited temperature range. If daytime highs approach 75F or warmer, this species starts to suffer. Nights must consistently drop to 55F at least for long term survival of the plant. For three years now, I have maintained a highland greenhouse meticulously engineered to accomodate every need of highland species - some of which are regarded as very challenging - and my N. aristolochioides is still acclimating to my conditions after 15 months in my care.

As for N. truncata - a much easier plant and much more readily available - the Pasian variant is regarded as being more of an intermediate/highland species, where many other variants are warm growers, so choose according to the conditions you can offer it.
 
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wow. 15 months? Nevermind on that plant, Im good. No possible way I could provide such perfect settings. By the way, If anyone wants to look into this guy, go for it. I didnt think about poaching till someone said something.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nepenthes-A...064?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20e83f2208 This guy has alot of seeds and he lives in Indonesia. Something feels off now.

Also, will the highland or lowland Truncata produce more intricate pitchers? (wings/teeth of peristome)
 
If that population is no longer self sustaining, wouldn't it be better if people effortfully took the seeds and gave proper environments to allow for maximum potential germination, and then reintroduced some into the wild?

Additionally, while people might not like to hear this, going extinct in the wild isn't so bad if decent populations remain in captivity, in fact some species of plants and animals have been relatively successful with that arrangement.

Of course, this isn't an argument in favor of poaching of course, I view it as more of a conservation effort to guarantee the survival of the species. With the wild population already reduced that far I don't see a point in just leaving it alone to slowly dwindle out of existence.
 
If that population is no longer self sustaining, wouldn't it be better if people effortfully took the seeds and gave proper environments to allow for maximum potential germination, and then reintroduced some into the wild?

Additionally, while people might not like to hear this, going extinct in the wild isn't so bad if decent populations remain in captivity, in fact some species of plants and animals have been relatively successful with that arrangement.

Of course, this isn't an argument in favor of poaching of course, I view it as more of a conservation effort to guarantee the survival of the species. With the wild population already reduced that far I don't see a point in just leaving it alone to slowly dwindle out of existence.

I don't even know how to address some of this. Are you just trolling??
 
I don't even know how to address some of this. Are you just trolling??

No. There are species which went extinct in the wild but are in such numbers in captivity that they aren't endangered. If we can't hope to save the environment which these species live in in the wild, I feel preserving them in captivity as a viable option.
 
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No. There are species which went extinct in the wild but are in such numbers in captivity that they aren't endangered. If we can't hope to save the environment which these species live in in the wild, I feel preserving them in captivity as a viable option.

No, no and NO!
The problem isn't that the site is at risk of development (as is often the case with these endangered species) its that the government in the region does not care about such matters and will not enforce any control over poaching. Its all about the site being poached, year after year, without any force being applied to stop it.

The environment the species inhabits is in an isolated region and the only threat the species faces is from poachers who sell the seeds on fleabay. :headwall:
 
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No, no and NO!
The problem isn't that the site is at risk of development (as is often the case with these endangered species) its that the government in the region does not care about such matters and will not enforce any control over poaching. Its all about the site being poached, year after year, without any force being applied to stop it.

The environment the species inhabits is in an isolated region and the only threat the species faces is from poachers who sell the seeds on fleabay. :headwall:

I must agree. If the dominant law-enforcing power in the region cares nothing about an issue, it will not do anything about it unless given a good reason to by someone. Even then, if it decides to take no action or finds the reason impractical, then nothing will change unless someone else does something. Experienced thieves know exactly what they are doing and how to do it. If no one stops them, they'll just keep on going.

Perhaps we can preserve endangered species in captivity, but that isn't the point here. The point is that we must prevent these species from becoming endangered IN THE FIRST PLACE.
 
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  • #12
There are species which went extinct in the wild but are in such numbers in captivity that they aren't endangered.

That's completely contradictory. Species that no longer exist in their historic range are considered extinct in the wild by the IUCN. There could be thousands of the plants in captivity or out of their natural distribution, but the fact is, they are still considered extinct in the wild.

When such plants are grown in the captivity, reintroducing them into the wild is very difficult, considering the survival rates in the wild are much smaller than in controlled environments. It isn't an efficient way to conserve the species ; rather, preventing the species from ever getting to that point is much more effective.
 
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  • #13
Sadly, governments only cares about money and could care less about the beautiful species and environments they grow in, so they will waste no time in protecting them.
Who wants to start a protection agency with me and harass climbers at the base of cloud forest mountains?
 
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You can find Nepenthes spathulata on Ebay from time to time; in fact that was how I acquired mine.
 
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...rather, preventing the species from ever getting to that point is much more effective.

Just like what I said.

When such plants are grown in the captivity, reintroducing them into the wild is very difficult, considering the survival rates in the wild are much smaller than in controlled environments.

Exactly. Unless the controlled environment is exactly like the native environment, reintroduction is not easy. Many plants, especially carnivorous plants, are very finicky about their ambient conditions and some plants will even react to being moved a mere few feet. Considering other captivity factors such as the absence of pests, environmental fluctuations (or the lack thereof), and how much plants are disturbed when moving them to be reintroduced, it's better just to prevent these species from ever becoming endangered.
 
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  • #16
You can find Nepenthes spathulata on Ebay from time to time; in fact that was how I acquired mine.

Ive been combing through Ebay, but no luck finding one. However.... there is a beautiful baby Truncata Pasian about 3" wide that I dont think Im going to let slip away.
 
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That's completely contradictory. Species that no longer exist in their historic range are considered extinct in the wild by the IUCN. There could be thousands of the plants in captivity or out of their natural distribution, but the fact is, they are still considered extinct in the wild.

When such plants are grown in the captivity, reintroducing them into the wild is very difficult, considering the survival rates in the wild are much smaller than in controlled environments. It isn't an efficient way to conserve the species ; rather, preventing the species from ever getting to that point is much more effective.

who said anything about reintroducing them into the wild? what does it matter to try for a population in the wild if there is a nice, varied population in human care? i just dont understand this obsession with only wild populations.
 
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who said anything about reintroducing them into the wild? what does it matter to try for a population in the wild if there is a nice, varied population in human care? i just dont understand this obsession with only wild populations.

It isn't "only wild populations". There are responsible ways collect and distribute wild plants into cultivation. What is happening with Aristo, and many many other species is theft. The people poaching the seeds do not care if the species is preserved in cultivation. They care about the money they can make from the seeds and plants they take from the mountains. Its greed.

Attitudes like yours, whether fueled by a lack of knowledge about the true situation, or by a complete disregard for the truly amazing things on this earth, causes things to be lost forever. Nepenthes have a hard enough time with lose of habitat, we don't need to push the extinction of wild populations by supplying the poachers with the demand that prompts their actions in the first place.
 
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  • #19
who said anything about reintroducing them into the wild? what does it matter to try for a population in the wild if there is a nice, varied population in human care? i just dont understand this obsession with only wild populations.

While a varied and genetically diverse cultivated population can be a species' best chance at times, and can relieve pressure on wild populations, there are species that just do not do as well in cultivation. In addition, these fantastic plants first evolved in nature and if we can help it we should try to keep as large of a natural population as possible. It's the same as it is with animals, they can be kept and bred for generations if necessary, but if there is any viable natural habitat left, you should try to keep at least some in the wild.
 
  • #20
I can see both sides of this argument.

On one hand, if a species is already endangered, I would consider it acceptable for a select number of seeds or plants to go to extremely qualified individuals or institutions (NOT Fleabay sales), for the sole sake of protecting the species from complete extinction - especially in the case (as it seems to be in most of East Asia) where the local gov'ts give not one rat fart if a species goes extinct as long as they can make a buck off it today. And with it being such a densely populated region (human population) there is little to no way to enforce any law they do pass, short of posting armed guards on preserves - which does sometimes happen, for more iconic things like Rhinoceros.

A plant as sensitive as N. aristo may not be viable for relocating to the wild once suitable reserves are in place, but seeds from healthy captive specimens may be easier to plant in suitable locations, and allow to grow naturally.

A thief faced with starvation today for not poaching something he can sell, or imprisonment tomorrow for poaching will always choose poaching. Survival of self is a powerful incentive, and always trumps survival of anything else. This is why it seems that almost every vertebrate in China is endangered.

On the other hand, The poacher only poaches because there is demand for what he is stealing - in this case, Nepenthes seed. The only way we can hope to have any impact on it is to eliminate demand for poached seed. Refusing to buy questionable seed is one way we can help preserve this species in the wild.

By insisting on plants that were responsibly propagated, poaching becomes a much less tempting target, and responsible propagation becomes more profitable.

If you could buy a healthy, vigorous, TC Nepenthes, would you settle for poached seed that may or may not be viable?

It may seem like just a plant, but it's part of a complex ecosystem. Humans are notoriously horrible at estimating the roles different organisms play in ecosystems (and consequently, we have altered many by adding or subtracting vital species.) It is in there interest or preserving these ecosystems that we do not condone poaching, or taking of the plants from the wild.

Genetic bottlenecks can also screw up a species. I mean, look at Cheetahs.
 
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