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Thread: Poaching

  1. #17
    Whimgrinder's Avatar
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    To be fair, David, I would state that my objection is that many novices buy these seeds and - clueless about raising these plants from seed - kill the seeds in a few short weeks, or if they do germinate any they don't survive their first 12 months, through neglect or inability to provide basic needs. We ALL know people on this forum have gone down that road and many more will do so when these seeds are made so readily available. If only it were possible to idiot-proof this process. But hey - people want what they want, and thats that.

  2. #18
    sarracenia lover dionae's Avatar
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    These threads do amuse.

  3. #19

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    Even if you only buy plants that have been cultivated through tissue culture or from seed that has been produced in house @ a respectable nursery, at some point down the line those species were removed from the wild either in seed form or stem cutting.

    Unlike some who think all wild collection is wrong or immoral, I am a firm believer in conservation through cultivation. At some point plants, seeds, and / or cuttings have to be removed from the wild to be propagated. But a lot of the poaching that's going on by eBay vendors is excessive and damaging to wild populations. But as long as people are buying them, poaching will continue. Do you think these poachers care about the long-term survival of a plant species more than they care about being able to buy food for themselves? Truth is there's no way to stop people from doing it, at least not by sitting at our desks in front of our computers flaming about it on forums in our air conditioned homes.

    That being said, I have been guilty in the past of purchasing seeds from these vendors overseas on more than one occasion. I am very skilled at germinating and growing them and a good number of the plants I have in my collection came from seed pods that I had purchased from someone in Indonesia who no doubt collected them from the wild. I have used these plants as trade material and sold a few on eBay as well. I have ceased purchasing pods a while ago because the seeds were very often mislabeled, some never made it to me, and ultimately I didn't need any more plants. I've made the mistake of unintentionally distributing plants that were mislabeled even to a few members of this forum and that's one of the main problems with purchasing and growing out these seeds in the first place. Even if people were able to grow the plants out from seed, most growers wouldn't know if their plants were misidentified or not until they reach maturity.

    My concern is the rate at which these seed pods are being harvested, the people buying them who have no clue about how to raise them, or people who can raise them just fine but are negligent in tending to them and ultimately killing them. For instance, I know one person not far from me (member of this forum) that bought some seeds from one of those vendors and he got several to germinate but forgot to water for a few days and they all died. What a complete waste. In his mind he's thinking, "oh well, it was only a few bucks". In my mind I'm thinking, "someone just let genetically unique lowland Nepenthes plants die because he's too stupid to spray them with water that's sitting in a bottle right next to the plants!". And truth be told the vast majority, though not all, of seeds are being purchased by individuals like this. But that's not going to stop any time soon so complaining about it here is a waste of time.

    So I say if you have a problem with buying poached seeds, then don't do it. If you are worried you might get misidentified seeds and that it may take a few years to get the correct ID of the plants you are growing, then don't do it. If you want to try growing Nepenthes from seed and don't mind flushing a few bucks down the drain in order to gain experience, then the eBay vendors might be right for you. Just know you will be getting seeds that may not germinate, might be misidentified, may not arrive at all, and were most definitely poached from a wild population. If none of that makes you lose sleep at night then go for it.

  4. #20
    Red Lowii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramdacc View Post
    If you want to try growing Nepenthes from seed and don't mind flushing a few bucks down the drain in order to gain experience, then the eBay vendors might be right for you. Just know you will be getting seeds that may not germinate, might be misidentified, may not arrive at all, and were most definitely poached from a wild population. If none of that makes you lose sleep at night then go for it.
    If there are new people that have recently joined the hobby and fall under the category mentioned above. Flushing a few bucks on hybrid seed carries more weight, one benefit is obviously if they hypothetically they do die, it's no real loss, and secondly hybrid seed is generally a lot easier to sustain and faster growing than species seed.

    I have in the past year been making a few hybrid attempts and have given away about 1/2 the available seed from the different crosses with some success in germination, I'd be just as happy to start selling it to anyone that wants to try their luck with germination. Maybe there should be a thread dedicated solely to the sale of hybrid seed, that way people can chip in from time to time what they have available and possibly will ease the burden on some of the wild seed populations, at the same time I'm a bit skeptical that it would really work as a large number of growers are either limited for space or carry the elitist view that only species are worthy of cultivation. I'll have some seed available in a few months if people are keen to try. That's my 2cents for the day

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  5. #21
    I Am the Terror Of the Night! NemJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Lowii View Post
    Maybe there should be a thread dedicated solely to the sale of hybrid seed, that way people can chip in from time to time what they have available and possibly will ease the burden on some of the wild seed populations, at the same time I'm a bit skeptical that it would really work as a large number of growers are either limited for space or carry the elitist view that only species are worthy of
    I actually second this idea. This would be a good way to filter hybrids and purebreed. I wouldnt be surprised if members come out with copious amounts of cool new hybrids.

    However on the subject of poached fleabay seeds. You shouldnt encourage poachers by buying their seeds, but sadly in the end, they will always sell the seeds. However, I think in the end if you truly believe you can give the seeds a good home, life, and perhaps one day further spread more of the species, that may add just a little justification to buying questionable seeds. As ramdacc said, buy at your own risk or dont do it. But Thats a serious question of ethic.
    Last edited by NemJones; 07-03-2014 at 01:11 AM.

  6. #22
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    We really need to take out the variable of these guys stopping the collection of seeds. Its not going to happen. Even if they didn't have that big of an interest, there are still a few power players that will always buy seeds.

    Now if you look at available seed lots. There are a few who do only get 7-8 pods at a time and sell them. I've spoken with a few of the collectors and they do believe what a lot of people believe. The areas are under attack by business and the more seeds in cultivation the better chances to sustain the species. There are some that strip collect I know. And its taking the word of one person half a world away. I understand all those points. I also believe in giving them the benefit of doubt before always distrusting. So that said I take it with a grain of salt.

    But by looking at the aristo seed lot he had for sale. He only had 7 pods. I don't see this species too terribly often. Even though I don't check fleabay all the time either. Tbh I found out about the auction from this thread. So double edged sword there. Hey how's that song go? I don't care what you think as long as it is about me. This thread became free advertisement for his auction.

    I believe what many others think. Since the seeds were already collected and we are NOT going tons top the collection from here, why not experienced growers buy them and if they get successful germ keep some and donate others to places like ABG and other gardens who do reintroduction programs. Like Bella said some locations are lost forever because of golf courses and such. And if the plant was never collected then its lost forever.

    Not to mention some of these species plants bought from some of the power players were grown out from species seed collected in the wild by taxonomists. And I'm willing to bet most without a permit. Then all the growers jump on the chance to own a SG plant because it was sold by a plant powerhouse and not a lowly hobby grower who acquired seeds from a poor fellow just trying to make a buck in a hard hard world. I'm willing to bet 98% of the folks here really don't know what poor really is. Even our "poor" here have the latest cell phone and computer. I've seen families of four riding on a single cylinder dirt bike in the Dominican Republic. And that's common practice there. I can only imagine in some of the poor SE Asian countries what its like there.
    Last edited by JB_OrchidGuy; 07-03-2014 at 05:56 AM.

  7. #23
    Eric's Avatar
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    Thanks for these posts guys. I guess I feel pretty naive and hadn't really thought about some of your points before. Appreciate the words of wisdom

  8. #24
    corky's Avatar
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    very interesting thread,there have been seed give away's on here and no one questioned if they were legally collected,as JB said these guys are feeding their families and not trying to be Mr popular,I think i read that there has never been permission to collect edwardsiana yet they are been grown

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