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Thread: Nepenthes Nomenclature

  1. #17

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    No doubt that there must be some input from something else in some of the plants in culture, but I wouldn't rule out everyone because of that. The width of the peristome is a bit strange, but the description doesn't say how narrow it can be, only the maximum width. Some seem to have really wide peristome, but it is difficult to estimate peristome size when pitcher size is not known. The acute leaf tip was something that was found on some wild plants, according to Ch'ien and he didn't see those as not being this species. The leaf base decurrency is another matter, that I would expect to see in the cultivated plants. Either something else is mixed in, or in some cases they might need to be grown further into the climbing stage. Even plants pictured here that in most parts fit the description show traits that doesn't (like the lid appendage).

    Regards,

    Christer
    Last edited by christerb; 02-03-2015 at 07:35 AM.

  2. #18
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
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    Sure I'm picky about plant nomenclature, etc. But I'm a CPophile and a quasi-Nepenthophile, and only responding to items that detract from my own understanding of, and enjoyment of these various threads and posts. Also thinking too, about how a beginner, non-CP fanatic, or other persons such as a non-English speaking person might not be able to follow a thread or post. I hope no one takes my efforts as personal. They are not intended that way. I too appreciate, and enjoy, every thread and topic concerning these amazing plants. I only draw the line at inappropriate language and/or temperament.
    Joseph Clemens
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  3. #19
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mato View Post
    Not accepted by who?
    Despite the many and various sources for taxonomic information about all plants, including our precious CP, thank you Not a Number, for turning me on to even more sources that I was not yet aware of. My first, goto source for CP taxonomy is the CP Database. It is maintained by Rick Walker and the nomenclatural synopsis is provided by Jan Schlauer. My personal opinion is that Jan is a genius, especially as concerns CP nomenclature and taxonomy. His email address is posted at the CP Database site, and he usually responds quickly and succinctly to inquiries about CP nomenclature and taxonomy.

    The CP Database allows quick searches of plant names; all matching entries, only accepted names, or only cultivar names. It is part of the ICPS Webring. All accepted name entries are in bold text, and all others are not in bold text. If you have a question concerning a particular taxons status, I have no doubt that Jan can provide the answers.

    Several years ago, when I was still active on the CP Listserv (also run by Rick Walker), Jan was also active, and he was busy answering many similar questions, on the CP Listserv. There are archives, available at the listserv link that can reveal those discussions, for those with the time and interest to check them out.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 02-03-2015 at 06:57 PM.
    Joseph Clemens
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  4. #20
    anramitaco's Avatar
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    items that detract from my own understanding of, and enjoyment of these various threads and posts. Also thinking too, about how a beginner, non-CP fanatic, or other persons such as a non-English speaking person might not be able to follow a thread or post.
    I for one appreciate efforts to clarify taxonomy but I do think that the edits here can go to far. I stumbled on an older nomenclature thread a while ago and I don't want to revive that debate. But I do want to add: There are a lot of folks on this forum who have botanical training and for whom precise nomenclature is important. There are also a lot of hobbyists on here who affectionately call Nepenthes "neps" or use abbreviations (e.g., the earlier "platy") to save space/time, the same way a lot of orchid folks will say "dens" or "pleuros" or "masdies." I certainly wouldn't mind my post being edited because I grossly misspelled a genus or species, used an outdated name, or something to that effect. However, in a thread discussing Nepenthes, I see correcting someone's "argentii" to "N. argentii" as pedantic. It's clear, given the context, that the person was referring to Nepenthes argentii. Likewise, when someone mentions the famously difficult "burb-eddie," which I've seen on here, it doesn't take more than a cursory glance at the rest of the thread to establish the identity of the shortcut. Context matters. Just the other day, at J&L Orchids, Cordelia said to me "if cuthbertsonii doesn't grow well for you, try laevifolium." We were talking about Dendrobiums, and to avoid redundancy, we just used species names. It's the same reason we use pronouns. To argue that--again, in a thread devoted to Nepenthes--"glandulifera" is confusing and ambiguous is a bit like saying the "he" in your above sentence "Jan was also active, and he was busy" is just as ambiguous.

    As a linguist by training the egregious spelling errors and total lack of consideration for grammar on public forums bothers me, but at the end of the day those errors don't really impede comprehension or prevent conversation. And conversation is what this is all about.
    Last edited by anramitaco; 02-03-2015 at 07:44 PM.

  5. #21
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amphirion View Post
    if N. x trusmadiensis [it appears this supposed nothospecies was published as N. trusmadiensis, not the nothospecies N. x trusmadiensis]is not a legitimate nomenclature, then many of the Sarracenia natural hybrid nomenclature are not legitimate either, ie: S. x readii, S. x catesbaei, S. x exornata, S. x excellens.
    It's not really a matter of the names being legitimate or not. You can check out the CP Database to see what's, what, for yourself. There is a Taxonomic database format page, that explains what the various entries in the database are, and what they're used for.

    And, of course, just like N. trusmadiensis, none of the Sarracenia natural hybrids, were actually ever validly published as nothospecies, which, at least, some of them are. They were published as species (which they were assumed to be, at the time), which I believe keeps those names from being accepted by taxonomists. This has never prevented authors of popular books, hobby growers, or nurserymen from using those names. They are basically invalid grex names, for known hybrids. These last few thoughts are from my own interpretation - I could be mistaken. If you are really curious about this, I recommend asking Jan Schlauer.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 02-03-2015 at 07:46 PM.
    Joseph Clemens
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  6. #22
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
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    anramitaco, I appreciate your feedback, and taking the time to provide it.

    Sure, conversations, such as the one you had recently at J&L Orchids, was informal, yet acceptable. It was also, face to face, where misunderstandings, of the nature you describe, can quickly and easily be resolved. Forums may seem contemporary, and they are, for now, but they're also archival. I've had lots of experience trying to decipher forum threads and posts, where the original posters are no longer readily accessible. In those cases, it is remarkable how cryptic some can seem.

    If forums were like live conversations, such as chat rooms, all your precepts would be entirely valid.

    I agree that calling Nepenthes, neps or Neps, as a general term, is just fine. I don't generally correct those, unless I'm in the thread for other reasons. I don't completely agree that leaving off the genus name of a particular species epithet, just because the thread is in the Nepenthes forum, to assume everyone will be able to decipher your meaning, and assuming too, that no other plant genera will be discussed there, seems a little inaccurate. Multiple genera are commonly referred to in many various threads and sub-forums. One of the first threads, having an issue, was one where the poster was affectionately calling his Drosera, "cap". It was not very intuitive, there being two commonly grown species, both with species epithets starting with those three letters.

    When I was less-experienced, but not really a beginner; just new to forums, I spent much time mining information from forums. It was ultimately rewarding, but gave me insight on what to avoid, so the forum archives would ultimately be somewhat easier to mine. Search engines have improved, so all the pitfalls I learned, then, do not all apply, now. But, many of them still do, and most can improve the ease of mining.

    I can't help being a little concerned about CP growers in their own countries. I periodically visit their forums, and notice how, I often, see plants referred to, I assume, in the vernacular of their native tongue, where translation programs, sometimes fail to translate. Regardless, I often discover interesting things, I might not realize, otherwise. When they make my navigation there, more difficult, they may just be doing the same thing we're discussing in this post. With translation, many interesting things can often be gleaned there. I certainly hope to help, such non-English speaking visitors to our forum, avoid some possibly similar problems.
    Joseph Clemens
    Tucson, Arizona, U S A

  7. #23
    Aristoloingulamata Dexenthes's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to get into anymore superfluous debates that have already been had over the subject, but I will hardily agree that I think your editing of posts to hyper-correct every trivial reference to each species or genus is what some would call:

    "next level"

    However, sometimes the corrections can be welcomed for clarification. Other times, it just comes off as being a little heavy handed with the "moderation".
    LOOKING FOR: N. (argentii x bicalcarata) x {[(lingulata x edwardsiana) x (naga x hamata)] x [(klossii x undulatifolia) x (aristolochioides x rajah)]} Growlist: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=124586

  8. #24
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
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    Dexenthes,

    I am often thinking, just those same kind of thoughts. Especially when I'm adjusting/moderating other's posts. I have no doubt, that many of my adjustments are easily perceived as picky, even extremely so.

    I can't help but also remember my own experiences, having such difficulties at navigating various forum archives, to mine them for data. I spent many hours, day after day, for months at a time, until I was certain I'd gleaned all I could on each subject I was researching.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    I couldn't help but develop a mindset, through the experiences I had with the various difficulties encountered when working through forums to find helpful information and how they could, more easily, have that information, accessible to my data mining efforts.

    I'm not actually expecting to have everyone be meticulous with plant names. I certainly can't even expect that my own posts will be completely nomenclature error free. I also couldn't come up with enough time to do thorough nomenclature checks/moderations in all threads/posts, or even anywhere near a majority of them, and I don't intend to.

    My primary purpose, in these past few intensive efforts, is to help increase awareness of this issue, and present some handy tools that can help everyone be more familiar with nomenclature and how to match it to the plants we grow. So we can all be more confident that the plants we are growing, match the names we are calling them.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 02-04-2015 at 12:38 AM.
    Joseph Clemens
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