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N. lowii

Anyone have a theory as to why birds use the umm...Lowii pitchers as miniature toilets?
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Just a thought...what could birds eat that give Lowii nutrition? This is a pretty bizarre way to live...Living off of animal poop...



It is pretty though..:p
 
bird poop are surprizingly rich with nutrients. they love the honey on the lowii pitchers and the pitchers desine forces there rear end to face towards the insides of the pitcher, and the excraments are usually dropped in. zongyi (oh, and lots of animals live off poop, including me *kidding*)
 
Hi:

Zongi. I have read "Savage Garden". Peter D'amato hypothesises this. However, are there any real scientific evidence on this theory of N. lowii being an bird toilet???.

Agustin
 
According to Charles Clarke, in Pitcher Plants of Sabah (2001), which is the most recent reference I can find on the subject.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Scientists who have studied the contents of its pitchers found large quantities of bird excrement inside, and it has been suggested that this species may have evolved to exploit this nutrient rich resource instead of insects. However, this hypothesis is yet to be tested experimentally.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I don't know if the situation has changed in the last couple of years, vis-a-vis further studies, or whether this is the current state of play with this hypothesis.

Vic
 
Gus, I believe Charles Clarke talks about this in Nepenthes of Borneo.

(edit: OK Vic it's in Neps of Sabah, my cousin still hasn't returned my copy I loaned her)

Before Grow More, Miracle Grow and Superthrive what do you suppose great granddaddy used to grow the family 40? Good old doo doo, that's what!
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Farmers spread manure on the fields all the time (perhaps you don't live near any farms). So to me the thought of using animal feces as fertilizer is not such an uncommon nutrient, after all, that's all bugs are for CPs, mild fertilizer, just in a different form.
 
Charles Clarke does talk about it in 'Nepenthes of Borneo', I chose to quote from the 'Pitcher Plants of Sabah', because it is a more recent publication, by four years. Also, the quote is short and easily understood by all.

Vic
 
With all my due respects to Vic and Swords. This is still a hypothesis. I could not agree with you more that cow manure and other animals poo are excellent fertilizers!!. However, whether Lowii really needs poo to survive instead of catching insects still needs to be determined. A great experiment would be to feed one lowii with excrement and another Lowii with insects. If both plants grow at the same rate or look very healthy, then the theory is wrong, but if the lowii fed with excrement grows healthier and faster than the insect-fed one, then Charles is absolutely right on this one!!

Agustin
 
agustine all that would prove is that one is more beneficial to the plant than the other, it would not prove anything about what lowii pitchers are designed to catch in the wild.

I have never attempted to design a test like this but I am guessing that lots of hours spent examining the contents of lowii pitchers out in the jungle is the only way anything can be proven conclusively?

Cheers, Troy
 
Or just set up a security cam to film a lowii that you grow outdoors (you'd have to live in the right climate). Set it on a motion sensor (that would have to be one sensative sensor&#33
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and see who visits the pitchers.
Ok, so that's not very practical....
 
  • #10
Well Troy, yes it would prove that!, but remember if Lowii is evolving to just catch poo and nothing else, then it is putting itself at risk of being extinct. In nature this could happen in very isolated areas. Thus, you may never find this to be the case. Anything that give any hints that Lowii prefers poo than regular insects would prove Charles Clarke right!!.

I could also argue that the reason why Lowii catches a lot of poo is because its pitchers are very wide at the top. So it is a matter of increasing lowii's chances. the same should apply to N. ephippiata.

Another point to consider is that this plant is found in more than one area: Trus madi, kinabalu and i forgot the third one. I am sure birds go through all these areas and fly over the same areas where other types of nepenthes are. If Lowii is developing a selective advantage over the other types of Neps, It may have become a predominant population in the wild.


Agustin
 
  • #11
My theory is that they N. Lowii evolved to feed on insects and feces. If it strictly was designed for eating...poo...then it would make the 'honey' ever more irresitable to birds...and not just insects...anyways..this plant is awsome...
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  • #12
Look at this beast....
lowii_u8M.jpg


A toilet fit for a...albatross!
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  • #13
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (agustinfranco @ Sep. 26 2003,8:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but remember if Lowii is evolving to just catch poo and nothing else,[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Augustin,

you have to prove this first! And only then the rest of your logic might be valid. I have to agree with Troy that a field study would yield scientific valuable results.

Cheers Joachim
 
  • #14
Hi all:

Yes Joachim, everything mentioned here is still a hypothesis. But I am not convinced that by finding poo in Lowii's pitcher means that this is its preferred food. Perhaps it is the most common, but it may not be the ideal diet.

It happens to humans too!. If you go to a different country and you start consuming the local food, does not mean it is your preferred food, just the more abundant under certain circumstances. I wonder if these places are deprived of birds, could Lowii still survive or die without poo??.

Agustin
 
  • #15
Augustin,

To talk  about 'preferred food', as if N. lowii can make some sort of conscious decision about what it does or doesn't like to eat is anthropomorphism at its worst. CPs have evolved strategies which enable them to advantageously compete for niche space by supplementing their nutrient intake by the means capturing prey. They don't choose their food or express any preferences, but they can evolve means (trap shape, colour, attractants etc) which tend to attract a particular type of prey over others.

The fact is that large quantities of bird poo has been found in the pitchers of this species and it seems reasonable to me that the plants may have evolved the strategy of attracting birds for this purpose. Until someone does the laborious long-term field studies, in a remote and hostile environment (at great cost too! ), it remains a hypothesis, quite a good one too, in my opinion. If you don't like it, get a botany degree and some post-graduate experience in plant ecology, find some funding and trek off to Borneo for a few months hard work. Then when you have disproved the hypothesis, publish it and convince others of your findings. There is nothing wrong with the hypothesis, its just a reasonable idea, waiting to be investigated.

Vic
 
  • #16
Let's relate to the Venus flytrap, you think it was specifically evolved to catch just flys? Nope whatever it can get it's green little nippers on it takes.

Evaluation on a pitcher plant whatever falls in it takes advantage of. You must also remember if the plants in cultivation were/are evolving to catch bird feces then they would begin dieing off in thousands of collections world wide and I know quite few people who have mature lowii and they have no contact with feathered friends whatsoever, just bugs and maybe mild fertilzer.
 
  • #17
Exactly Nep Gracilis. I am going with you all the way. By the way, Vic I am not a botanist, but a molecular biologist. My experience as a scientist tells me that we'll never find an absolute answer, just relative ones, with or without long term studies. Living things are not on this earth endowed with a single function but with more than one. They are so adaptable, in most cases, that they change functions when their environment changes. The most intriguing aspect of nepenthes pitcher shape is the fact that there are so many varieties and no one knows why. Their plasticity to change shape when hybridized is amazing. So I do believe that Lowii's pitcher shape and size provides this plant with an advantage of catching bird's poo, but it does not mean that it was specifically evolved to catch them. That as i mentioned before, remains to be proven. So please let's be careful with the terminology used here.

Vic, maybe you should get a degree in botany and clarify these things for us?
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Gus
 
  • #18
Gus

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So I do believe that Lowii's pitcher shape and size provides this plant with an advantage of catching bird's poo, but it does not mean that it was specifically evolved to catch them.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

In essence your statement is correct. Until further study has been done no one should believe this is "gospel" however it can be reasonably proven one way or the other.

You will have to agree that bird poo is available everywhere, in every jungle.

Examinations of the contents of pitchers of all other Nepenthes has shown that they do not contain bird poo. I have seen several hundred for myself personally and other people have done studies on particular species so this is a fact, not an assumption by me. This suggests that, even by accident, bird poo is not a usual source of nutrients for Nepenthes.

IF someone goes out into the jungle and finds that a substantial percentage of lowii pitchers do contain bird poo then it is a reasonable assumption that the plant has evolved to take advantage of bird poo as a source of nutrients. This would be reinforced even further if it turns out that there are very few insects in those same pitchers.

If it is show that lowii has evolved to catch bird poo I doubt anyone would believe that this means lowii is unable to take advantage of any other prey that enters the pitchers. Only that lowii has evolved to become better than other Nepenthes at catching bird poo.

Just another example; the aristolochioides site is infested with these tiny flying gnat things that irritate the heck out of you. They appear to be the major source of prey on the ridge. Have a look at aristolochioides, how the pitcher has evolved, and tell me how successful it would be at catching flying gnats if it were shaped like ampullaria and hidden away in the undergrowth.

At this point in time no one is saying the bird poo theory is the truth but it is looking very probable and through field study of large populations it can be statistically proven either way.

cheers, Troy.
 
  • #19
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">'Vic, maybe you should get a degree in botany and clarify these things for us?'[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I already have a degree in ecology, and two post graduate degrees and 15 years research experience with animal-plant interactions, much of it spent researching as an entomologist in a plant ecology department, I think its a bit late in life for me to take another degree! My wife's PhD is in botany, so maybe I can bring her along too. Just send a very large cheque made payable to V. Brown, and I'll book the flights and start planning!  
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Seriously, if Charles Clarke, who is acknowledged as someone with great expertise and experience of these plants in nature, considers the hypothesis to be plausible, I'm happy with it and willing to wait for the right scientists to do the relevant research. I wasn't trying to cause offence, just trying point out what would be involved, in general terms, in order to investigate this.

Cheers

Vic
 
  • #20
NG,

Why would the lowii die off in thousands of collections worldwide, if they are/were evolving to catch bird feces? You mention that people feed their lowiis bugs and fertilizer. If so, they do not need to catch anything.
 
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