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Thread: clipeata

  1. #25
    BoooOOOOooooo!!!!! unknownclown's Avatar
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    Yeah that would be realy cool if he could do that for you! &#36500 ouch! That sucks!
    And hey, no problem [img]http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]

  2. #26
    Tony Paroubek's Avatar
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    I heard back from Jerry Fischer (owner of Orchids Limited). He says the clipeata are true.. they are clones from a collected plant from Mt Kelam. So I will order a couple and see. I tried their online ordering but it's not working ATM. I also sent him a reply asking for actual size of the plants since size 4,5 and 7 don't mean much to me and I could not find an explanation to what their sizing code means. (rather poorly put together website in my opinion)
    Tony

  3. #27

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    From what I now N. 2 new N. clipeata sites have been discovered. (I don't know where)
    One site (I don't know which one) was destroyed by fire. (maybe this was the first site, other resources said that it was only overcollected ?)

    Hmmm...
    I personaly don't like the argument of "collecting seed now and than repotting the plants if they vanish"

    Easy to talk about this now, but who will give away 10 of his mature plants in 20 years, each of them worth many &#36&#36&#36
    (and than potting them out and watching them die because they can not adept to the wild climate ?)

    Or trying to pot them out, recognizing that there is no habitat left wher they can grow ?!?

    I would do EVERYTHING to protect what is left to be protected.

    And if this means that newly discovered sites mustn't be described to excactly, that collectors can't find them easily.

    Nepenthes is producing a great amount of seed, so if one (or two) responsible growers will take a few !!! of them (lets say 20%) and distribute (sell) them to some growers than (I think !) this would be ok and will help to establish a healthy population in culture.

    But if only 5 people and each are taking 20% of the seed....
    (and there are so many who want this plant...)
    :o(((

    Martin

  4. #28

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    Fatboy and others,

    Here are more philosphical issues... If nature intended for a species to die out, bz of weak genes, wouldn't it be best to allow nature run it's course?

    Repopulating a rare specie should require some prior knowledge of the population size over the years. If a specie always were few in numbers in it's natural habitat, then man shouldn't intervene with the small population.

    TC'ing on a limited gene pool is still not the best answer as the same genes are cloned, whether they are good or bad. Similarly, when reproducing sexually from low diversity gene pool is basically inbreeding, and that leds to weak offsprings.

    I wish the enforcement of wildlife is stronger in many areas including the US. It seems that there are more people who simply do not care about the environment.

  5. #29
    fatboy's Avatar
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    Hi Emesis

    At the risk of sounding like I'm one of those "I gotta have the last word" kinda guys (I'm not, I don't think):

    How can we know if clipeata was on it's way to extinction before overcollection caused it's even more rapid demise?
    The first time I went to the aristolochiodes site, and I believe that I was probably the first after Andreas, there were plenty of them. Admittedly they were very restricted in their range but in the area they occured there were too many to count. Now, as I said, maybe 10?
    Once the plants have been affected by man, whether it be from collection, habitat destruction or whatever, it becomes very difficult to say that they were "naturally" on their way to extinction.

    Secondly, I figure we have wiped out enough species that were definitely NOT on their way to oblivion that it is our responsibility to try and save a few, even if nature would have done away with them. It just seems a crime to sit by and watch something, even if it was a "boring" species (as much as any CP can be boring), die out and not attempt to stop it happening.

    cheers emesis. fatboy.

  6. #30

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    we are loosing an estimated number of 200 spezies each DAY !!!
    65 million years ago, during the "time of extinction", when the dionosauriers died out, around 200 spezies vanished from earth during 10 YEARS !

    (and there was enough time for evolution to "create" new spezies which could fill the ecological neeches...)

    what we have now has absolutly nothing to do with bad genes or evolution...
    Someone (I forgot the name) sayed a few years ago : "This is not only the death of spezies it's even worse... It's the end of birth !)

    Neenths are "lucky" because they are "intersting" and easy to recongnice plants.
    But who cares about flies, worms, algae, ...

    @Emesis : how long do you think does the "spezies" Nepenthes clipeata exist ? 10000 years ? 100000 years ? 1000000 years ? I don't know !
    But I don't believe that the plants genes are too week to survive...
    The plant has survived long enough without the "help" of man.

    Martin

  7. #31

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    Martin and Fatboy,

    My last post was a generalized statement towards gene pools and such. If you read the second paragraph with a viewpoint of a specie that we do not have much data on, then my repopulation paragraph will make more sense.

    Likewise, if you read the gene pool paragraph and replace N. clipeata with an animal, you can see the possible effects of breeding w/ a limited gene pool. This is one of the many problems that mammal scientists are facing is how to maintain an endangered specie population alive when the population is small and not risk genetic defects resulting from breeding with a small gene pool. Look at the Northern White Rhino (~30 count), or the Javan Rhino (60 in Indonesia, 10 in Vietnam), and you can see the possible birth defects that can occur from breeding.

    I don't know and I'm not sure if anyone has extensive data to indicate how long N. clipeata and other CPs have been in existance, except for the Aldrovanda as we can trace them via their seeds.

    I do think that man should try to reverse its impact on the environment, and do it for the sake of the species, and not man. This can be interpretted as allowing nature to run its course when a specie becomes extinct *not caused* directly or indirectly by man.

    Cheers,

    Emesis

    (Edited by Emesis at 11[img]http://www.**********.com/iBhtml/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img]5 am on Nov. 4, 2001)

  8. #32
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    what a nice, FRIENDLY debate we have going here!

    My two cents, responsible collecting in some cases is a must, Collection for FINANCIAL GAIN, is not OK any more, not with these plants...

    The plain and simple truth is this, if Plants like Clipeata can't be maintained in teh wild becaus swine human beings take them for their private collections, or becaus e of fire, or plauge or what not, then it is our responsibility as people who love these plants to continue them on, to ensure that our children will have the opportunity to love them as well!

    Do I want one? YES! will I grab one from the wild? NO, will I take seed of one if offered? YES, will I give ten of them up in twenty years? Probably not, why? Because, hopefully in 20 years, there will be so many of their children and tissue cultured clones out there that I wouldn't NEED to give up 10 or 20 of my plants... Do you all realize that back in the victorian era, before WW1 and WW2 destroyed green houses all over europe, that Nepenthes could be found in almost every green house? they were popular plants, and they are becoming very popular again! To protect those plants in the wild they must be readily available out of cultivation.

    And if there aren't thousands of them in 10 or 20 years, Yeah... I would give up my plants... they don't belong to me, they belong to that mountain... that's where they should be if they are no where else...

    I digress... BTW, why in the #### would I acclimate a plant to that environment? Doesn't it make more sense to just seed it with a few hundred thousand seed out of private collections? Could be a hard thing to engineer, getting all that seed there at the right place, and the right time... but We certainly could try...

    I'll tell you what else, were I to get a few of these plants, and be lucky enough to get them to seed, you bet your bottom dollar I would send a good portion of it to Fatboy with the request that he sew that seed on that mountain. (and any where else he thinks it will grow.)

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