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Thread: N. burkei

  1. #17
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    Angry

    Quote
    hate to play Devil's Advocate here, but even if this is the plant that was named N. burkei, does it look different enough from N. ventricosa to be a different species? To me, N. mirabilis "echinostoma" looks more different from conventional N. mirabilis types than N. burkei looks compared to N. ventricosa. N. sibuyanensis looks different enough to me, and they are considered similar species.
    [/QUOTE]

    Grif,
    Don't forget that species distinctions are not only visual. In some cases (there is a vine snake in South America that is virtually indistinguishable from another vine snake in south east Asia), two completely different species can evolve very similar characteristics to deal with similar environments. It's called "convergent evolution."
    The species distinction may lie in the enzymes produced (which you can't see), the shape of the pollen grains (too little to really see), or any number of other itty-bitty differences.

    Just my two cents [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img]
    17 Nash Rd.
    North Salem, NY 10560

    YOU! Outta my gene pool!

  2. #18

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    Schlo,

    That is a good point. I have seen a comparison of those two snakes on Jeff Corwin, and it's very uncanny. I am not a taxonomist, and I don't know how far beyond visual and physical measuring the taxonomists decide speciation.

    Regards,

    Joe

  3. #19
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    I don't know much about N. burkie, but I just wanted to point out that N. sibuyanensis is a lot different than a N. ventricosa, although they are similar. N. sibuyanensis is much larger, wider peristome, different pitcher color, as well as a bunch of other more scientifical factors. Laters [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] .

  4. #20
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    I don't believe either Bu-1 or 2 is the same as the clone from Exotica. I will be taking cuttings of the Exotica clone but it is way too soon to determine availability etc.

    There are many factors which determine if a plant population should be considered a species. Often the taxonomists can't decide 100% either or which factors should have more weight in making such a call. Usually color is not one of them since it is lost in making herbarium specimens.
    Tony
    Is that a Nepenthes in your pocket or you just happy to see me?

  5. #21

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    BU-1 and BU-2 are clones derived from seed that was supposedly collected from Mt. Halcon in Mindoro, Philippines, tha type localle for N. burkei. I'm still undecided about this species and actually took BU-1 and BU-2 off the market until I could be more sure I wasn't peddling N. ventricosa under another name! The size of the lid and the realtive lack of ventricose characteristic to the pitcher seem inconsistent with N. ventricosa though.

    Unfortunately, taxanomic data is extremely sparse. I spoke with Charles Clarke about this briefly in Tokyo and he was undecided too.

    I feel one way to decide the issue would be to go to Mt. Halcon myself and check out wht grows up there. I've been meaning to go for years and have actually been within sight of the mountain on over 30 occasions since 1991, but either typhoons or scuba diving got in the way [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif[/img] Perhaps I'll make it this year.

    I do now agree Jeff that your plant is probably a less mature version of the one shown in the Exotica photo. If anyone has a mature plant of either BU-1 or BU-2, I'd love to see a photo!
    Rob Cantley
    Nep Nut in Sri Lanka
    http://www.borneoexotics.com

  6. #22

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    [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif[/img] Oh and by the way. N. mirabilis var. echinostoma vs. N. mirabilis. It's all games that taxonomists play in my opinion. There are trends at times to lump species together and at other times to split them up again. At one time N. echinostoma was regarded as a separate species to N. mirabilis and then it was "reunited" with N. mirabilis because apparently they have similar flowers. One day they will very likely be split again. That way, taxonomists can write more papers in their publish or perish world. It may seem to be a cynical viewpoint, but it's the view that several taxonomists that I have spoken with (no names mentioned) have cheerfully admitted to. Another interesting statistic is that with two exceptions that I can think of, all the current taxonomists leading the field in the world of Nepenthes have hardly ever seen any plants in the wild, which is unfortunate in that they sometimes don't realize the enormous variation in form that can exist within a single species. For example, if they happen to be dealing with a pressing of an immature or atypical plant, then the description they produce becomes the standard and can be misleading.

    Yep Jeff, another controversial thread but interesting [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img]
    Rob Cantley
    Nep Nut in Sri Lanka
    http://www.borneoexotics.com

  7. #23

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    This is a little off topic from N. burkei but I thought I might go well here with all of this discussion on taxonomy. I know that many biologists define two separate species as populations that cannot interbreed to produce viable offspring (either the offspring dont develop, or are still born, or they are infertile, ect.) How does this fit in with Nepenthes and other genera of carnivorous plants that can readily be interbred to produce fertile reproductively capable hybrids? Is this rule for distinguishing species not used in botany as a whole or are their special conventions for certain genera (ie. Nepenthes, Sarracenia, Heliamphora)?

    Matt
    Matt Miller - Nepenthophile.
    Carnivorous Plants Online - http://www.paonline.com/mrmiller/

  8. #24

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    In the interest of adding further impetus to this discussion,
    I've posted a scan of a lithograph featuring N. burkei. The
    scan is admittedly rather poor; I tried to get the original print,
    but was unable to do so, and was stuck with the poor quality
    image instead, but that's another story....

    This image comes from a periodical called Revue Horticole,
    and was published around the turn of the last century (about
    1900).


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