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Thread: N. clipeata

  1. #17

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    Hello,

    thanks for the additional pictures Tony. Judging from the description of the pitchers in Flora Malesiana by Cheek and Jebb and all plants grown from wild collected cuttings I did see up to now, I still don't think this plant is a pure N. clipeata. The pitchers should be "..., lower third globose to obovoid,... , the upper 2/3 narrowly infundibuliform, 2.8-5cm wide at the base, chartaceous, flaring gradually to 5.2-9cm at the mouth..." - which none of the pitchers really does match well. And the pitcher lid: "..., the lower surface with a laterally flattened basal appendage to 8mm tall..", which would match the pictures from what I do understand. Another thing I don't remember seeing in pure N. clipeata is the green colour on the outer surface of the petiole.

    But of course I am no expert in Nepenthes identification and so I have asked some Nepenthes specialists here in Germany, who have seen N. clipeata in habit, to have a look at this thread. Also I do think there were much more than two different parent plants used for the pollination of the female flower here in the Munich botanical garden. The plant did flower twice and different hybrids were produced, as far as I know.

    Joachim

  2. #18

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    Quote (Borneo @ Jan. 14 2003,7:45)
    Thanks for your observations. The lack of globose base to the pitcher is a good point. However, although this plant is mature sexually, I think it isn't really dimensionally fully grown yet.

    The origins of clone clip-1 are the seeds distributed from Munich Botanical Gardens. The female parent was wild collected N. clipeata. The flower spike was pollinated partially with N. clipeata pollen (from another wild collected plant) and also with (according to Andreas Wistuba) N. eymae pollen. The controversy arises over the assertion that seeds were mixed up when sent out (something the Director of Munich Gardens angrily denies). So, from the facts I believe we have so far, it's either pure N. clipeata, or N. clipeata x eymae, but is unlikely to be a complex hybrid. I agree that the apparent differences between this plant and N. clipeata as we know it (and let's face it, we have few records other than taxanomic descriptions and Robert Kresanek and Ch'ien Lee's photos) may point to a complex hybrid. However, I don't see that's possible from what I have been told so far of the history of this clone.

    I've asked Andreas to take a look at this thread. Let's see if he comes up with something.[/QUOTE]
    Hi all,

    I think concerning the pollen that was used on the Munich-plants there is quite some confusion and also a misunderstanding:
    While in Munich several N. clipeata hybrids (among them N. clipeata x N. eymae) were crossed in the years before they had a male and a female N. clipeata flower at the same time at the last occasion (when male and female were floweing) apart from N. clipeata pollen, indeed pollen from _at least_ one previous hybrid, N. clipeata x N. eymae, was used, indeed leading to complex hybrids.

    To be honest, I agree with Joachim, that Tony's plant is a complex hybrid almost certainly. Usually the young plants, a few centimeters across, already have the typical globose pitcher bases. Sorry to disappoint, but I'm quite certain about this.

    Bye

    Andreas

  3. #19

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    Oh man! Does that mean everyone who has clone #1 has this complex hybrid(it still looks nice, but..)?

    Regards,

    Joe

  4. #20
    Tony Paroubek's Avatar
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    Ah I see what you mean on the petioles Joachim, comparing to your picture. I will have to look closer at the other 'clip-1' plant and see how it compares as well.

    Also some very good clarification Andreas on what occured at the Munich Botanical Gardens. If I understand correctly your thinking that what it may in fact be is N. clipeata x (N. clipeata x N. eymae). That would explain the very close resemblance to N. clipeata while also not being 'quite right'.

    It is deffinately worthwhile to have so many knowledgable folks to compare clones and personal experience with. Thanks to everyone for your input!
    Tony
    Is that a Nepenthes in your pocket or you just happy to see me?

  5. #21

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    Ah, well, if complex hybrids were made, as Andreas indicates,
    then that would certainly account for the variation we've
    seen in the photos. I was not aware that such complex hybrids
    had been created....

    For what it's worth, I have a specimen from Andreas which
    is labeled "clone 1" and I am absolutely convinced that it
    is pure N. clipeata. It is shown on my website:
    Plants with Attitude.

    In any case, this has been a very interesting thread of discussion!

  6. #22

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    Andreas,

    Thank you for taking a look at this thread and clarifying the situation with regard to the seed production at Munich. I had been told in the past (actually not by you, but by someone who claimed to have conversed directly with Henning von Smelling, the curator of Munich Botanical Gardens) that pollen used to produce half the seeds was obtained from pure N. eymae and the other half from a pure N. clipeata. I do however, accept that this is probably incorrect and that your version is almost certainly more accurate, which explains a great deal. A complex hybrid is quite believable. Cliff Dodd has this clone as well as clip-2 and three other clones obtained from your sterile cultures. He says that both clip-1 and clip-2 grow about 2 to 3 times faster than the clones you supplied, which would indicate possible hybrid vigor.

    Based on the information in this thread and some other information available from other sources, I would now have to agree with Joachim and Andreas. Never mind, it's a great plant anyway and it'll be fun to see any new emerging characteristics. Pity from a conservation aspect though, since more clones of true N. clipeata around in cultivation would be highly desirable. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif[/img]

    Tony, thanks for putting this up a a separate thread. We've seen some very interesting photographs as a result, not to mention expert input from various people. The PFT forum is an excellent aid to discussion.
    Rob Cantley
    Nep Nut in Sri Lanka
    http://www.borneoexotics.com

  7. #23

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    Hi Tony and all others,
    Joachim Danz asked me for my opinion to the photos of N.clipeata#1 posted by Dustin and You.
    When I saw these(really phantastic) photos I thougt, that it can not be the true species,and according with Andreas I think that it is an F2 hybrid, with N.clipeata and N.emey backcrossed with N.clipeata again.
    I know the plants which have been grown in Munich years ago and they had 2 or 3 N.clipeata and there have been 3 manmade hybrids :N.clipeata x ventricosa
    N.clipeata x emey and N.clipeata x veitchii (low)
    They tried for years to get the male and female clip into flower at the same time.
    One year (maybe 6 or 7 years ago)they managed this and the flower was pollinated with clip ,but also,some of the other Hybrids have been placed on the same flower.
    It is possible that there was an insect helping to make some mess with carrying the pollen all over the flower(maybe)
    I culivate a plant of the fist crossing N.clipeata x emey and I am shure ,that it is not the same that is shown on these pictures.

    Chris

  8. #24

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    Very interesting stuff. This has been the best thread since I joined this forum. Truly the kind of "meat and potatoes" discussions I had hoped to find. I was looking at some past discussions yestersay, and there was one called "Drool" that had pages of posts, but it was way out of control and very silly.
    An F2 hybrid makes sense, but my knowledge is way too limited to make that connection. Obviously people were growing these plants very successfully before Andreas got them into cultivation for most of us.
    How many wild plants are there in cultivation? You would hope there was a male and female growing somewhere between the people that have original plants.
    I think Rob has been working hard at that possibility.

    Regards,

    Joe

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