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Careful with Ebay!

There is a seller on Ebay selling giant N. rafflesiana seeds who will not be supplying proper export paperwork. The seeds would be coming  from Singapore . Almost guarenteed to be opened by customs due to the increased SE asian terror alerts.
Every single item I've received through the post from SE Asia in the last couple months has been opened and repacked by customs. Yes even letters (sent fully opened and sealed in a baggie with an "apology"). If any of you thought of bidding on these seeds be warned. I asked and you will be running the risk of getting nabbed. I don't know if the penalties for seed is the same as live plants but Griffins story/fine is something to keep in mind.

Just a friendly PSA!
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edit: BTW I am not trying to protect a bid, just my a - - and yours too!
 
They are also asking way too much money for the seeds.
 
Dear Swords:

I am very curious about laws, restrictions and regulations about importing plants or seeds. Could you tell us, or show us the thread on Griffin's story.

Thanks

Agustin Franco
 
I have travelled to Germany on 3 occasions and on each one, i have seen plants by Thomas Carow. He is a master in growing cp's. I think the quality of his plants surpasses that of many of his local competitors. It is a shame that he does not export to the U.S.


cp addict
 
To legally import seeds (or plant parts - live or dead) you must have an import permit as well the plants (or parts) must be accompanied by phytosantiary certificate (i.e "clean bill of health" from the exporting country's  agriculture dept.). Since Nepenthes are almost all Appendix 2 (N. khasiana and N. rajah are on App. 1) of the endangered species list of CITES (Conservation In Trade of Endangered Species). This documentation must accompany CITES protected plants (or animals) when shipped internationally. These documents state (officially) that the plant (or parts) are from artifically cultivated (not wild collected) plants.

There was an update to the importing of seeds due to "possible biological agents" being distributed on seeds a year or so ago. but I do not recall the exact details whether seed importing was to be halted or would just be watched more closely.

Actually, I'd pay up to $1 per seed so I think the current price is great, the risk however, is greater.  I do not recall The Griffins exact thread but I'm sure he will pop in and recant the expensive details. I think the fine was $2500 and the plant was originally $20... And it was the SENDERs screw up, Griffin had the necessary import permit but the sender didn't have the phytosantiary or CITES paperwork (this paperwork is not generally free so unless they do a volume business you will usually have to pay extra for these documents) The sender also lied about the contents of the package on the outside of the box.

Importing can be a risky thing when you deal with a new company or a possible "smuggler", or rather, someone who doesn't know the laws. In this sense "smuggling" of cultivated plants is not smuggling on a sinister level, just ignorance of the laws. But as they say on the lawyer shows "ignorance of the law is no excuse" and saying you didn't know won't get you off. With no paperwork how do you prove that you grew it? The federal government takes this seriously.

For more information, read the book Orchid Fever by Eric Hansen for some very dreadful tales of the tactics used by the government to halt the international underground orchid trade (not exactly the same as Neps but are classed the same as "endangered flora"). Including raiding greenhouses in guerilla combat style with uzis and attack dogs as if they were busting a drug lab or mafia stronghold.

Just be careful when dealing with sellers outside the USA (or your home country wherever it is) CITES is an international treaty and is enforced in almost every nation. Actual nurseries who deal in plants are generally safe to order from as they are registered with their governments and know to send the apropriate documentation for the country they are exporting to.

Here is a link to some reading information on APHIS the department of the USDA who handles the import permits:
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/permits/plantproducts/index.html
 
Seven plants at $25 each, otherwise Swords memory is correct. A $2500 fine for the me, because the sender did not have the paperwork, and labled the package as "children's toys". Since he did that and I ordered it, I was considered a "smuggler" in that case. I choose not to fight it in a hearing, because I was having stress/depression issues and if the judge did not see it my way, the fine could go up to a maximum of $10,000. A lawyer was not an option, as the costs of one researching the case would probably exceed $2500.

Regards,

Joe
 
That's terrible Griffin! That makes me glad I didn't try and ship to Canada! I was told just to label the plants as "windowsill ornaments" and they would get through OK.

Whew! What a tough break!

SF
 
SnowyFalcon,

Up here in Canada, the hobby of CP's is growing (pardon the pun) but selection and variety is limited. So most of us grow from seeds or depend on kind-hearted individuals who are willing to go the extra bit to obtain a phytosanitary certificate to send with the CPs. Many of us are willing to reimburse for the expense of such documentation and would not advocate breaking the law (better to pay a little extra for a plant than to not have it at all!).

But then again, there are always the few that ruin it for everybody.

ghostface.gif
 
You are correct Cchang, but I did not have the time, money or knowledge as to obtain a phytosanitary certificate and the other source said it wasn't necessary.  

I do want to applaud those who strive to grow these plants in countries where they are not readily available.  ESPECIALLY if their entire collection was obtained legally. You seem to understand this, Cchang, which makes you one of the "good guys".

I don't think anyone wants or likes to be fined by
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SF
 
  • #10
Dear All:

I agree with you all 300%. It is wise to get the necessary paperwork to be able to import from any country. However, there are some countries which go overboard with quarantine import restrictions. To the extent that no nursery is motivated to export to such country. This is the case in Australia. Hey, we are law abiding citizens? why do we have to be punished this way?. In australia a phytosanitary certificate is not enough!!. the plants still have to remain in quarantine for 60 days!!. Quarantine comes from latin preffix "quar" which means 40. So quarantine should be a confinement of a live specimen for 40 days in an isolated area to avoid spread of a particular disease. But here in Oz, it is confinement of a live specimen for 60 days so it should be called "sesquintine".

Anyway, I want to legally import some plants from a major nursery overseas and I am complaining to the minister of agriculture in my country at the same time to make him see that the laws are to strict when it comes to importing exotic plants. If things go this way, soon, nobody would be able to import anything live at all!!.

I want to protect the environment as much as you all do, but please, let's not overdo it!!.


Gus
 
  • #11
I guess the only question is do you feel lucky? It is to bad that a few bad seeds had to wreck it for tons of ppl. It make good ppl look like criminals but it is a serious matter and the goverment does not know your backround. Is it worth sending a seed of a cp to someone in another country for a fine up to 2500 dollars, no. I would personally feel horrible if I did that and the person I sent it too got cought.
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Griffin, that is horrible what happened. It is a lesson to everyone else I guess...just wish it would of never happened.

Travis
 
  • #12
It's the extent of the smuggling activities by the "few bad seeds" that caused such strict laws. Whole species localities had been wiped out by overcollecting for the nursery trade in the years before CITES came into effect (in the 1970s I think). So now the same laws that govern the illegal importing of zebra skins, cassowary feathers or bones, giant tortise shells, elephant ivory, tiger skin rugs, or even live birds of paradise or tigers. also includes the Orchids, Nepenthes and other endangered plant species (S. oreophilla).

There are some screwy aspects to CITES, including the fact that even pressed dried botanical specimens can not pass through international borders. People have been fined for receiving pressed orchid specimens some 100 years old because that particular species was listed on CITES and the botanical type specimen had no CITES paperwork even though the plant was obviously collected before the CITES treaty was enacted.

Gus,
Malesiana Tropicals supplies very small ex-vitro plantlets especially for places like Australia and NZ. A dime sized plantlet isn't the ideal "new plant" but according to MT these will get through better than normal plants. Perhaps you should email them to see what they can tell you about buying and exporting plants for Australia.

How about buying from Exotica or Southern carnivores? They have very nice collections and are already in Australia.
 
  • #13
I want to import too!!, but at least 2,000 dollars worth of merchandise!!. What is the best place to do so??

cp addict
 
  • #14
About importing seeds, it is not legal by the CITES? We must have a permit? I don't know if the laws you are talking about are only for the USA version of the CITES, but here is the CITES page for Canada:

For example, for Nepenthes rallfesiana seeds (listed as Nepenthes spp, since it is not N. rajah or N. khasiana):

http://www.cites.ec.gc.ca/ControlList/detail.cfm?lang=e&code=954

It is saying that the seeds, TC plants and such are excluded from CITES (for Appendix 2), so you do not need permit to import them. I am writing a letter right now to them for being sure of his affirmation, though. I'll let you know!
 
  • #15
Tom,

Actually, I think we might have drifted from trading seeds to Singapore (the original topic) to trading in general.

You are correct that TC's and seeds do not need phytosanitary certificates to import/export to/from Canada. I've confirmed this with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. But if it's a CITES protect species, it's always best to check. Earlier this year, I exported Nepenthes Ventricosa and they completed 2 forms for me. One was the standard Phytosanitary certificate, the other, more for precautionary measures, was a CITES declaration since Nepenthes was listed. There was no extra cost for the CITES documentation so I didn't mind. Sooooo, although you may not require a phytosanitary cert. to import/export the seeds to/from Canada, you may require a CITES cert.
 
  • #16
Every country has their own laws with regard to Import/export permits and Phytosanitary certificate requirements. These are seperate from international CITES requirments.

Requirements might be slightly different as well if your importing vs exporting.

Tony
 
  • #17
Tom,
I can not comment on Canadas observations of CITES or their Phytosantiary requirements having never dealt with their laws. However, CITES is an international treaty observed by almost every nation on earth, there isn't room for variation from nation to nation. What is stated in the treaty is what goes. ANY plant material identified or identifiable as an endangered species on either list (App. 1 or App. 2) must be accompanied by CITES paperwork to legally cross international borders.
It doesn't matter if the material being transported is TC, dried pressed herbarium specimens or cuttings from mature living plants. The numbers of species that are legally traded internationally is logged into a record book somewhere and is used in conservation reports during international environmental and conservation symposiums.

You can try importing an endangered species through international borders without proper documentation but it is your own risk. I'm sure smugglers probably get away with it all the time using ingenius methods. I'm just informing people of the consequences that come with getting caught smuggling endangered species through international borders. Is a $2500 fine worth it for 15 Nepenthes rafflesiana seeds? As I said, they don't care if you've illegally imported once or one hundred times, the fact is you did.

As far as seeds themselves go, it may be only a portion of the homeland security  laws setup after 9/11 for the USA, it may not apply to Canada.

Phytosantiary restrictions (such as for those poor folks in Australia) is completely different than CITES. As an example it is technically illegal for me to mail Neps (or any other plants) to CA, AZ, HI and I think OR wihout proper phytosantiary paperwork. And this is inside the US borders.

If you are interested in researching the floral CITES laws further, the Royal Botanical Gardens at Kew has released several books on CITES (since they helped create the CITES regulations as it pertains to flora). The latest A CITES guide to Carnivorous Plants has just been released a few months ago. These books are pricey however and not very exciting reading!
 
  • #18
wait a minute. in Toms link, it doesn't say that if i order something from, lets say, the US, that i need an import permit. is that true?
"To import in Canada :
Specimens to be imported into Canada must be accompanied by: a CITES export permit issued by the exporting country."
doesn't say i need an import permit, only the exporter has to have one. if this is true, it could open up new opertunities
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Zongyi
 
  • #19
$2500,and it wasn`t your fault?!
 
  • #20
Thanks Josh for your words of support. Unfortunately, Malesiana tropicals has decided to suspend plant export to Australia because of the strict quarantine laws!!. So I am thinking to use Borneo Exotics instead.

Exotica plants had a wide range of hybrids, i would say amongst the best in the world, but due to a drought, now they are left with few plants. However, these are still precious. Let's hope they recover soon.

So as you can see, it is not as easy as one thinks, but i am not giving up yet.

Agustin
 
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