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Thread: nepenthes grafting

  1. #9
    Nepenthes Specialist nepenthes gracilis's Avatar
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    Pondboy, do you mean Meiosis, the replication of gametes (sex cells) through 2 cell divisions, or Osmosis the diffusion of water, or Mitosis the reproduction of body cells through 1 cell division. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif[/img]




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    Meiosis lol.
    [img]http://home.**********.com/users/pondboy/Neps/Neps%20sig..JPG[/img]

  3. #11
    Nepenthes Specialist nepenthes gracilis's Avatar
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    So you want reproductive cells to grow into the graft? Wouldn't you rather want Mitosis? (reproduction of body cells) [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif[/img]

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (nepenthes gracilis @ Feb. 07 2004,16:36)]So you want reproductive cells to grow into the graft? Wouldn't you rather want Mitosis? (reproduction of body cells) [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif[/img]
    Pondboy is confused, lol. It's Mitosis and I don't know about skin oil causing problems, but the bacteria on your skin sertainly will... This is a good idea.... Wax should also hold in moisture.


    ...If you put a weak plant on a plant with extreamly robust roots, you will get an extreamly robust vertion of the week plant. A lot of times, the root system is the deciding factor in how fast and large a plant grows. The better the roots, the more effective the food storage, useage and water flow. While your graft would not be genetically changed, it will have a very importent part of it with better genes and that is what really counts. Most plants have a very high capasity for growth and are only limited by their ablitiy to obtain reasorces. Need examples? Have an apple lately? Most cultivars of apples have horrid root structues. Literally, they make these pathedic little fruits and die without emaculate care. But that is not what you see at the store [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] At the store you see the fruit from an apple that was grafted onto the root stock of one of the origenal domesticated apples... or at least the oldest we have. See, imbreeding makes the root systems of apple week, so we needed a way to selectively breed for both hardyness, and fast growth while also getting the fruit flavor, texture and skin that we wanted. The solution was to breed for fruit by taking apple seedlings from a favoret tree and grafting them back into a root system from one of the old virieties like Transparent Apples. Then you could see the fruit at it's best and keep breeding and a grafting. The apples we grow for todays market are ALL grafted. These plants hold the genes for awsome fruit, but horrid root systems. It's an easy solution to a complex problem [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] How do I know this? I live on a farm, and my dad wants to get fruit trees so that is where the details came from, but I orgenally learned about this from a tree already on our property. The origenal owners said they had been ripped off, this stupid tree wasn't what they had planted, the tree had never been carefor it's entire life, that was ovious, so I had to wonder what was up. A little research later and I found out that it was a Transparent Apple tree, the first green apple known to man. I also found out that just about the only way you will ever get to see one is if you have a tree thats graft failed because that is what nearly all cultivars are grafted on to because while the Transparent apple has soft skinned fruit, it produces apples for the entire growing season and in huge volumes because it's root system is unbeatable....

    [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] so um yah, my point is putting a slow growing species on a fast growing one will probubly have very nice results [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]
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  5. #13
    Tony Paroubek's Avatar
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    Uhhhh Darcie...

    While it is true that sometimes grafting is done because the root stock is stronger and more resistant this is only one reason and usually not the main reason. Apples have fine root systems and inbreeding has not caused weak plants. I have plenty of full sized apples of many different cultivars growing on their own roots. But who wants to try and pick apples 40' off the ground? They are grafted for size control of the tree. Cytokinin produced in the roots determines internodal length in the shoots. The root stock used to produce semi-dwarf and dwarf trees produces less cytokinin than standard roots so the trees stay smaller and more compact. This makes the trees easier and faster to care for and harvest. It means you can pack more plants into the same growing space, more trees = more fruit per acre. It means the fruit is closer together so more dense fruit production = more fruit per acre.

    It is also worth mentioning that even grafted trees make pathetic little fruits if the trees are not cared for and sprayed liberally for most of the growing season with various insecticides and fungicides, or some sort of comparable organic gardening/IPM system.

    Tony
    Is that a Nepenthes in your pocket or you just happy to see me?

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    yah, size controle is a big part of it too, you can get mini-trees that way. . . with normalish fruit. I've seen real bitty fruit trees. All of our fruit tree books and the websites you buy them from say they are all grafted early on, they really have to be. Apple Cultivars are all clones of each other. You have to graft them to get new plants started in any amount of time, either you set it up so that the new plant kills the old and takes over with it's own roots or you do the more logical thing and sick them on the roots of the fastest growing hardiest breed you can grow. Of course, you can still have good apples without a graft, we had a bird donated apple tree that did well, but you definetly can't get as hardy of a plant without the graft unless it's a hardy varient to begin with which are usually lower quality. Maybe in the south you can get away with more then in the North. But then again, my state is a major apple producer so oviously the south isn't perfict for them or we would be outdone up here. An apple tree at 40', Unless we are talking one seriously shelterd area, no way they could reach that hieght without falling appart. As it is with the "Smaller" trees if you don't prune them just right all the time they overgrow and start to collaps at about 20' That is what ours is busy doing right now. It's not a thret to anything and it's a little late to start pruning it, so having parts break off and the thing branch out all over like a giant bush isn't that big of a problem for us. After an apple tree gets past a certain age it also starts to get too big regardless of pruning and fruit production goes down so orcherds have to rip them all out of the ground and start a new rotation. Maybe they can reach those sizes in a shelterd area if they live long enough, but I can garentee that size controle is not the #1 reason for grafting apples. They are grafted so they can handle colder climates [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html312/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] that I know for a fact unless the orcherds around here all lie.

    ...Incidently, let us assume breeding has caused 40' plants, that still counts as weaker as far as apples go, what with the falling appart thing.

    I hope this didn't come off as harsh. I am having trouble coming up with a way to state my argument without souding evil >_< um, can you just take my word that I'm not trying to sound bad, just stateing what I know.
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  7. #15
    Tony Paroubek's Avatar
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    I don't take what your saying as bad but also realize I have extensive training in horticulture as well. Most fruit tree catalogs will list standard apples reaching a hight of 25 feet or so. This is with regular pruning. The normal dimensions for a mature standard size unpruned apple tree is 40' wide and 40' tall. True in harsher climates the trees may be smaller due to natural pruning.. or as you put it breaking limbs but this is not always the case.

    Fruit/nut tree standard size chart
    Reasons for grafting ... from my alma mater
    Apple rooststock characteristics

    Note the column for Hardiness. Seedling is the most hardy and is well rooted and highly adaptable to varied soil conditions. Seedlings rootstock is just that. Rootstock produced via seed. The select cultivar is grafted to the seedling rootstock to quickly produce larger numbers of the selected variety that would be possible from directly rooting cuttings.

    The number one reason to graft apples is size control and increase the speed to bearing age for the tree.
    Tony
    Is that a Nepenthes in your pocket or you just happy to see me?

  8. #16

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    o_O wha? I don't get it, it sounds like you just supported what I said and argued against your earlier remarks, but then you go and say the roots are for size controle again? My point is that in orcherd of apples it isn't for size controle (just like you said at the top of your post where you were saying with 40' normal for adult unpruned plants) but for production of cultivars in high numbers and cold tolerant versions of southern cultivars.

    >_< nother one of those debates where we agrea, but sound funny to each other and get gummed up.
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